Hi!
You asked for an opinion, so here's my 2 cents:
There's nothing "gay" about writing & using scripts that improve your chances. Scripting allows you to use your gray matter to compensate for what you may lack in dexterity department, basicly. Besides, IMHO, knowing your way around simple scripting, such as ET's, is part of being a "pro". Start banning certain scripts, and you'll stiffle little precious innovation in that area that there still is (ok, "innovation" sounds stupid, but it is undeniable in creating something surprisingly complex using something simple and limited.)
Or how about this: these new gay Q-pads size of my apartment and super-sensitive optical mice with 88 buttons -- not everyone can afford them! They are a farking unfair advantage! League admins, please enforce the use of affordable 2-button wheel-mice and 20x20cm Micro$oft (TM) Mouse Pads in competitions. Or maybe etpro team can restrict sensitivity setting to the range of 10-11, so eveyone gets the same treatment.
To generalize, fine-tuning a game is OK, but once you start cutting away every part of it that you or your immediate peers don't enjoy or have no use for, you're risking being left alone with yourself and a few of your vocal peers. That's just my opinion. =)
skript kidz
Moderators: Forum moderators, developers
Couldn't agree more with snowwhite. Scripting is a feature of the game and a quality of the real pros is to maximize the tools at their disposal to the max.
It is like that with every "sport" or "game". As the level goes up fewer & fewer people can keep up. If you're a leet aimer but a crap scripter you might be outgunned (no pun intended) by the scripting guy who needs less seconds then you for whatever task.
Guess the way this game is built you have to have dexterity & intelligence, not just brute force shooting.
EDIT: I do oppose 'external' aids that actually modify the game or aim for you, but not the built-in functionality of the game.
It is like that with every "sport" or "game". As the level goes up fewer & fewer people can keep up. If you're a leet aimer but a crap scripter you might be outgunned (no pun intended) by the scripting guy who needs less seconds then you for whatever task.
Guess the way this game is built you have to have dexterity & intelligence, not just brute force shooting.
EDIT: I do oppose 'external' aids that actually modify the game or aim for you, but not the built-in functionality of the game.
Our servers now run on 64 bit steroids. Point your ET to:
- Forgotten Ground StopWatch Server with occasional wolfrof 1
- Fraggle Rock ETPub Server - Mix up ET/UT & Duke Nukem
- Forgotten Ground StopWatch Server with occasional wolfrof 1
- Fraggle Rock ETPub Server - Mix up ET/UT & Duke Nukem
I disagree.
The script changes things that were not meant to be changed. Recoil, etc...
Hardware advantage is a fact of life. Someone somewhere has a better PC with 2.1 jigawatts and a flux capacitor.
This doesn't mean that a person with a lesser puter can't beat them in a 1v1.
Changing this like m_pitch, sensitivity, crosshair color, and size anyone can do. Most forums post about this and is available to all.
But scripts that lock on horizontal, no recoil are walking a fine line. Once a person gets use to that and still get beat, next step is to get somethng else to give one an advantage.
Some scripts just automate things to make life easier. Things that can still be humanly possible. No recoil is a thing someone could do without a script.
The script changes things that were not meant to be changed. Recoil, etc...
Hardware advantage is a fact of life. Someone somewhere has a better PC with 2.1 jigawatts and a flux capacitor.
This doesn't mean that a person with a lesser puter can't beat them in a 1v1.
Changing this like m_pitch, sensitivity, crosshair color, and size anyone can do. Most forums post about this and is available to all.
But scripts that lock on horizontal, no recoil are walking a fine line. Once a person gets use to that and still get beat, next step is to get somethng else to give one an advantage.
Some scripts just automate things to make life easier. Things that can still be humanly possible. No recoil is a thing someone could do without a script.
Tweaking is also part of the game, and yet if you find a cvar (or combination of cvars) that e.g removes fog it will no doubt be banned by leagues (if possible). How is anti-recoil scripts any different?deej wrote:Couldn't agree more with snowwhite. Scripting is a feature of the game and a quality of the real pros is to maximize the tools at their disposal to the max.
I also doubt it's only "smart" people that use stuff like this (the 1337 script kidz probably use any script they can find), so it's not like having a anti-recoil script reflects skill in any way.
I'm not gonna complain if you use it as long as it's not banned though...
cool lets remove all cvar restrictions so people can see through fog, walls and floors, it might be unintended but it's game functionality, right? Lets just aim on the horazontal axis. Lets just automate playing with mortars, take the whole silly aiming thing out and just click where to bomb on the cmap. We dont need antiwarp, dexterous players should be able to warp and be unhittable if they are intelligent enough to download someone's script.
Lets differentiate between exploits of the game engine and exploits of OpenGL and other software.
The whole "game functionality" argument is total bollocks, any argument that "if its not an external hack it's not cheating" is clearly nonsense from people who are not aware what is actually possible with game cvars. What matters is wether it is either
a) ethically cheating or
b) detrimental to the game, which of course (a) invariably is.
c) technically feasable to restrict (which itself considers detriment of exploit use vs detriment of side effects from restricting it)
auto aim for any weapon is exploit IMHO, and is both ethically cheating and detrimental to the game, replacing skill and experience with downloading a file, regardless of wether it is an external aimbot or an internal script. Even the name mortarbot spells out what the author thinks of it. The same cvar crops up for this script which simulates centerview, functionality very deliberately removed because both the devs and clan community (ok, so it was the rtcw one) considerd it an exploit and detrimental to the game. A third functionality of the cvar was blocked by, AFIAK, all major leagues when it is performed by different cvars (m_yaw:m_pitch).
Far as i'm concerned the question is wether it's really feasable to block it, in particular the element of ([detriment of exploit use] vs [detriment of side effects from restricting it]), since cl_pichspeed seems to be also used bona-fide for mortar. Seeing how good natural mortar players can be, the scripts arent going to be any better so at least that means they are not some uber ownage thing that just must be dealt with.
as for
Fortunately there's been some admins with much better attitude since then, though getting genuine researched concerns through the sea of other player's bollocks is still hard if you're not opinionated and loud enough to be a 'recognised' pr0 player. Even though I got immediate strong support from Pack and other people when i did the ET cvar restriction page, it was still what 6 months before even half the changes suggested were put in, and they still were making additions a YEAR after I'd posted about them. I'm pretty sure that they only came in at all due to them slowly passing between players (who probably mostly found it for themselves anyway) until they finally got to some pr0 names picking up on the exploits and putting preassure on CB.
Lets differentiate between exploits of the game engine and exploits of OpenGL and other software.
The whole "game functionality" argument is total bollocks, any argument that "if its not an external hack it's not cheating" is clearly nonsense from people who are not aware what is actually possible with game cvars. What matters is wether it is either
a) ethically cheating or
b) detrimental to the game, which of course (a) invariably is.
c) technically feasable to restrict (which itself considers detriment of exploit use vs detriment of side effects from restricting it)
auto aim for any weapon is exploit IMHO, and is both ethically cheating and detrimental to the game, replacing skill and experience with downloading a file, regardless of wether it is an external aimbot or an internal script. Even the name mortarbot spells out what the author thinks of it. The same cvar crops up for this script which simulates centerview, functionality very deliberately removed because both the devs and clan community (ok, so it was the rtcw one) considerd it an exploit and detrimental to the game. A third functionality of the cvar was blocked by, AFIAK, all major leagues when it is performed by different cvars (m_yaw:m_pitch).
Far as i'm concerned the question is wether it's really feasable to block it, in particular the element of ([detriment of exploit use] vs [detriment of side effects from restricting it]), since cl_pichspeed seems to be also used bona-fide for mortar. Seeing how good natural mortar players can be, the scripts arent going to be any better so at least that means they are not some uber ownage thing that just must be dealt with.
as for
maybe a year or so I'd have agreed 100%, when major league cvar restrictions were blatant RTCW restriction imports with non-existant cvars restricted, clear exploits unrestricted and admins who just flamed and took the piss when i provided a very thorough analysis. Lets not even go into those who wanted sv_fps >20.i don't have a hell of a lot of faith that the "league officials" can walk and chew gum, tbh. and as we debated another time, bani isn't the man to burden with this - they are.
Fortunately there's been some admins with much better attitude since then, though getting genuine researched concerns through the sea of other player's bollocks is still hard if you're not opinionated and loud enough to be a 'recognised' pr0 player. Even though I got immediate strong support from Pack and other people when i did the ET cvar restriction page, it was still what 6 months before even half the changes suggested were put in, and they still were making additions a YEAR after I'd posted about them. I'm pretty sure that they only came in at all due to them slowly passing between players (who probably mostly found it for themselves anyway) until they finally got to some pr0 names picking up on the exploits and putting preassure on CB.
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skillzilla
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:19 pm
thank you DG, i feel somewhat vindicated (finally)
to those who think "anything goes", what about r_shownormals? i could figure out where you are with sound triangulation anyway (classic CS argument), so why not just show me where you are and be done with it? oh c'mon, i'll put it on a toggle and only use it when i *really* need it, i promise
a centerview scipt is essentially a one-dimentional aimbot. <--stop and read that again. does anyone (anyone who DOESN'T use it, that is) seriously think such a thing is justified?
i very much doubt you can say so with a straight face.
to those who think "anything goes", what about r_shownormals? i could figure out where you are with sound triangulation anyway (classic CS argument), so why not just show me where you are and be done with it? oh c'mon, i'll put it on a toggle and only use it when i *really* need it, i promise
a centerview scipt is essentially a one-dimentional aimbot. <--stop and read that again. does anyone (anyone who DOESN'T use it, that is) seriously think such a thing is justified?
i very much doubt you can say so with a straight face.
Please direct all gameplay-changing feature requests here.
imo, i don't care if a person knows where i am at all times... IN A PUB... now from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound like this script is a legal clan cfg anyways, so wtf is the big deal? getting your ass handed to you by someone who isn't 'clean' makes you all the better, that is unless you are an egofied powertripping maniac and can't stand taking a beating in a pub, but hey, if i get into a shootout with them 1v1 and i win 1 outta 10 times, i'm the real winner not him, you ever wonder why you don't see these same '1337' kids on the '1337' clans, it's because they lack skill, they'd end up being rambo medics in the middle of a clan match, exactly the type of person i don't want on my team, but then again, maybe that's just me
Till DEATH do us Part
as of now it's not restricted by anyone anywhere. that's pretty much the entire thrust of the debate.
i make no distinction between cheating in a match or on a pub - and neither do the leagues. they can and will ban you from competing if you are caught cheating on a pub. of course, nothing is a cheat until it is deemed to be so - which is another aspect of this discussion.
as for "eliminating scripts", you should see my config. nearly every key i touch perfoms a combination of tasks - i love scripting. nothing in my config emulates an outlawed (and subsequently removed) command, however. the moment something i use on a daily basis is deemed illegal, i will promptly remove it and adapt to life without it. i won't feel like i'm being put at a disadvantage without it, because nobody else will be able to use it either.
and that's the point.
these arguments can go both ways, as demonstrated recently with the spawn timer debate. many wanted them restricted, but in the end it was decided that wasn't possible, so it was implemented into the game as a feature for all to use. i'll be perfectly frank with you - if bani wants to re-introduce +centerview, i'll immediately begin using it. the point is, if an advantage is discovered, it should either be made universally available, or eliminated. things like hardware are really not in this category. look at the teams from countries without broadband, and with low per capita incomes. they adapt to their sub-par gear and own with it. but having an alienware box and a monitor the size of a plasma TV isn't going to improve your game like an exploit will.
i make no distinction between cheating in a match or on a pub - and neither do the leagues. they can and will ban you from competing if you are caught cheating on a pub. of course, nothing is a cheat until it is deemed to be so - which is another aspect of this discussion.
as for "eliminating scripts", you should see my config. nearly every key i touch perfoms a combination of tasks - i love scripting. nothing in my config emulates an outlawed (and subsequently removed) command, however. the moment something i use on a daily basis is deemed illegal, i will promptly remove it and adapt to life without it. i won't feel like i'm being put at a disadvantage without it, because nobody else will be able to use it either.
and that's the point.
these arguments can go both ways, as demonstrated recently with the spawn timer debate. many wanted them restricted, but in the end it was decided that wasn't possible, so it was implemented into the game as a feature for all to use. i'll be perfectly frank with you - if bani wants to re-introduce +centerview, i'll immediately begin using it. the point is, if an advantage is discovered, it should either be made universally available, or eliminated. things like hardware are really not in this category. look at the teams from countries without broadband, and with low per capita incomes. they adapt to their sub-par gear and own with it. but having an alienware box and a monitor the size of a plasma TV isn't going to improve your game like an exploit will.
Last edited by ouroboro on Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Please direct all gameplay-changing feature requests here.
So, anti-recoil scripts, centerview, lag causing scripts etc are all fine ? Cvar tweaks that let you see through fog or even walls ? There is no possible exploit that involves the use of cvars ?SnowWhite wrote:Hi!
You asked for an opinion, so here's my 2 cents:
There's nothing "gay" about writing & using scripts that improve your chances. Scripting allows you to use your gray matter to compensate for what you may lack in dexterity department, basicly.
I'm quite glad most server admins and leagues don't seem to buy this. The fact is that combinations of in game settings can have effects that the developers didn't anticipate. As stated before, the particular cvars for this scripted are not banned, but most leagues have a generic rule against 'anti-recoil' scripts, which this would appear to qualify as, if you use it with a weapon that has recoil.
Some people argue that centerview is useless in ET, because so much of the maps are not level, but there are still plenty of flat places. As long as you can turn it on and off, that isn't much of an argument.
send lawyers, guns and money
Re: skript kidz
So, will this stop those scripts without doing too much harm on other things? DG?ouroboro wrote: command "sv_cvar cl_pitchspeed in 140"
er, well it'd break the centerview one i was given. I assume it'd also make any other one take quite a while to work, which would reduce their benefits and also perhaps offset with greater vulnerability due to a huge 'wait' time.
Not been given any mortarbot, tho by the looks of it they would use cl_pitchspeed to make it set the aim up quickly.
Only harm to "other things" i can see is as posted earlier, some people use a low pitchspeed for mortar fine adjustment. Cant think of anything else but that doesnt mean there isnt any other bona-fide use to break. Presumably a reduced cl_pitchspeed would make any scripts that are modified to continue working a bit crap anyway since they'd take ages. Maybe better, for those who do want to restrict, would be:
command "sv_cvar cl_pitchspeed IN 0 140"
(btw if just using the "IN 140", make it "EQ 140" for etpro restriction).
I'm assuming it wouldnt be at all necessary to restrict yawspeed aswell. Also note this is hardly based on research since I've only been given a centerview script (which worked well) like yesterday, and havent been spamming server with pb_sv_cvarval or anything like that.
Not been given any mortarbot, tho by the looks of it they would use cl_pitchspeed to make it set the aim up quickly.
Only harm to "other things" i can see is as posted earlier, some people use a low pitchspeed for mortar fine adjustment. Cant think of anything else but that doesnt mean there isnt any other bona-fide use to break. Presumably a reduced cl_pitchspeed would make any scripts that are modified to continue working a bit crap anyway since they'd take ages. Maybe better, for those who do want to restrict, would be:
command "sv_cvar cl_pitchspeed IN 0 140"
(btw if just using the "IN 140", make it "EQ 140" for etpro restriction).
I'm assuming it wouldnt be at all necessary to restrict yawspeed aswell. Also note this is hardly based on research since I've only been given a centerview script (which worked well) like yesterday, and havent been spamming server with pb_sv_cvarval or anything like that.
damnit i could have sworn i had found a mortarbot script once, but i can't find it among my petabyte of game crap, lol. if i find it i will pass it along. basically as i remember it, you had to figure out the best spots to deploy and target by yourself, then once you had them entered, just deploy and use the menu and it would flip you from target to target precisely.
impressionable young newbie: "gee whiz, mister! you sure are skilled with that there mortar!"
leet guru of skripting: "huhuhuh, naw little billy, that there's a mortarbot! why hell, i don't even have to look at the screen! in fact, i watch TV and smoke cigarettes and let the frags pile high!"
impressionable young newbie: "gee whiz, mister! you sure are skilled with that there mortar!"
leet guru of skripting: "huhuhuh, naw little billy, that there's a mortarbot! why hell, i don't even have to look at the screen! in fact, i watch TV and smoke cigarettes and let the frags pile high!"
Please direct all gameplay-changing feature requests here.
Allright you guys convinced me. I guess my lack of experience with these centerview and antirecoil scripts made me underestimate the effect of those type of scripts. So I guess yes if they provide the advantage that resembles using an external program to do the work for you, try to ban them.
I saw the light!
I saw the light!
Our servers now run on 64 bit steroids. Point your ET to:
- Forgotten Ground StopWatch Server with occasional wolfrof 1
- Fraggle Rock ETPub Server - Mix up ET/UT & Duke Nukem
- Forgotten Ground StopWatch Server with occasional wolfrof 1
- Fraggle Rock ETPub Server - Mix up ET/UT & Duke Nukem
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skillzilla
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:19 pm