Balancing wolfrof

hiro · Post by **hiro** » Sun May 15, 2005 9:33 pm

We've ben running a public server with wolfrof on and the reaction from most players has been fairly positive. As such, it is something that we will consider for our next season, should our community support it. While wolfrof immediately favours the leet smg players and on the surface would seem to encourage rambo medics, it also forces them to work together more as a team to get ammo and be more observant and quicker at reviving wounded teammates. However it has brought to light a number of imbalances that come with it, namely the advantage it gives SMGs over other weapons.

Panzers - The Panzer is the natural enemy of the Rambo Medic, since the days of rtcw they have stalked each other with hunting calls of "pack whore!" and "SK!"

However with wolfrof on the ET panzer is disadvantaged in a 1-on-1 showdown as it is very easy to drop the panzer before they get their shot off. While it could be argued that a good panzer should avoid putting himself in such a position in the first place (and if they do they usually do deserve to be gunned down), this is hardly a valid argument against empowering them.
My suggestion is to decrease the panzer wind-up time by the same percentage that SMG fire rate has been increased. By my three-beer reckoning that would be to about 80%, translating to a wind-up time of 640ms compared to the 800ms it currently is. Please correct me if that's wrong! If such a setting were to be introduced I'd suggest it be tied to b_wolfrof to ensure the two always compliment each other, or at least so that fast panzers can only be used when wolfrof is on.

Gibbing - I think for matches you'll need to increase the damage required to force a player into limbo, like the panzer idea this should probably be scaled to the increased fire rate. This should also be tied in with the wolfrof variable.

Rifle Grenades - I rarely use these so I'm not in a position to comment, but it stands to reason that if the SMG rate of fire is increased, so to should the firing of the rifle (not the grenade launcher!). As I said I'm not familiar with this gun so I'd be keen to hear from those have used it on wolfrof 1 servers.

I'm keen to hear comments from those who have played on wolfrof enabled servers on how you think these changes would affect the game in matches (should wolfrof ever be used), as well as pubs.

Post by **bani** » Sun May 15, 2005 9:58 pm

one thing people probably dont realize is that with wolfrof, the smg spread is doubled. where spread is basically non existent with normal rof, with wolfrof you have to fire in bursts (as in rtcw also).

dragon · Post by **dragon** » Sun May 15, 2005 10:26 pm

Hmm, i've got to say, i've not really noticed that. (But props to Bani for A) Implementing ROF and B) Mentioning that

I agree with Hiro though, some more balancing wouldnt go astray, specially for the panzerneers.

ouroboro · Post by **ouroboro** » Sun May 15, 2005 10:51 pm

bani wrote:one thing people probably dont realize is that with wolfrof, the smg spread is doubled. where spread is basically non existent with normal rof, with wolfrof you have to fire in bursts (as in rtcw also).

pardon my ignorance, but is that because you specifically mirrored the spread of rtcw in the new code, or is it due to some mathematical formula where higher rof == higher spread? i think i remember somebody (reyalp?) mentioning something like that once.

PS i blow at math

Post by **bani** » Sun May 15, 2005 11:35 pm

rof affects spread. faster rof = greater spread.

turn on crosshair pulse and see for yourself.

Mat3k · Post by **Mat3k** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:39 am

I agree with the suggestions, you have a good point about the balancing.

About the rifle, a possibility would be removing its spread so it would be like a luger without recoil and with 2x damage. It would still be slow, but worth using and it would make much more sense. The SMG is faster and less accurate with wolfrof and the rifle is slow, but accurate. I know realism isn't the primary thing here, but still, we can't deny it completely.

I really like this suggestion, I hope it's implemented and I hope the leagues accept it ASAP.

Nogen · Post by **Nogen** » Mon May 16, 2005 1:06 am

Trying to use a rifle vs wolfrof smg is just stupid. With wolfrof on you can take down a rifler (from a reasonable range) before he has even fired enough shots to kill you...completely ignoring the fact that those shots need to be accurate.

While hiro mentioned some specific issues I think that there are some broader issues. The balancing of smgs vs rifles vs spam was fairly good under competition settings. Now a timing element has been changed on the smg element but not changed on anything else. As well as the examples that hiro mentioned you can take a grenade as an example. 5 seconds fuse on a nade...you can empty an entire clip plus a good portion of your pistol in that time. The sten now overheats almost instantly. And the list goes on.

As far as the arguments that you need to be "smarter" with wolfrof on and that accuracy and spread should decrease unless you use burst fire... this maybe so but ALL i have noticed is that all wolfrof does is make smg dominate over all other weapons and speed up the game immensely.

I think that for wolfrof to be included as normal there aren't just a few balance changes to be made as hiro suggested...but a massive overhaul of the entire weapons system.

Mat3k · Post by **Mat3k** » Mon May 16, 2005 1:18 am

Trying to use a rifle vs wolfrof smg is just stupid. With wolfrof on you can take down a rifler (from a reasonable range) before he has even fired enough shots to kill you...completely ignoring the fact that those shots need to be accurate.

I agree, but close-range dogfights arent the only thing in the game. If it's made 100% accurate, it can be used for a different purpose, you can do some nice long distance damage with it.

I think that for wolfrof to be included as normal there aren't just a few balance changes to be made as hiro suggested...but a massive overhaul of the entire weapons system.

Well, we could balance everything back, but that would mean we're back where we started. We WANT the SMG to be stronger than other weapons, because we want to reduce spam. It's just a bit too strong ATM, so we need some minor changes for the other weapons to stay useful.

Nogen · Post by **Nogen** » Mon May 16, 2005 1:45 am

We WANT the SMG to be stronger than other weapons, because we want to reduce spam.

No WE don't. There are plenty of people from both camps - those who like a balanced game and those who think it should be more about the more mouse-skill oriented smg.

In any case this thread isn't about whether wolfrof is a good or bad idea. Its about what needs to be done with wolfrof to fit it in with the rest of the game.

hiro · Post by **hiro** » Mon May 16, 2005 3:18 am

bani wrote:one thing people probably dont realize is that with wolfrof, the smg spread is doubled. where spread is basically non existent with normal rof, with wolfrof you have to fire in bursts (as in rtcw also).

yep good point, although as others have mentioned it is an issue at mid to short range where it is still possible to land 3 - 4 consecutive shots.

However it's still early days and we've had the wolfrof server up for less than a week, we'll see how things go once players start to adapt and how much of a reduction in panzer wind-up is needed.

The engineer rifle would be nice to have as a reasonably accurate weapon at mid range that rewards accuracy, though I suspect most would prefer it to be more effective at shortrange, shotgun style. Either would rerquire heaps of testing and would change the game as significantly as wolfrof has, so I think perhaps just speeding it up a little would be the most logical thing to try first.

I don't think any other weapons need tinkering, certainly not grenades they are fine as is. Snipers seem to be benefiting from the lack of helmet protection when used, which imo is a good thing and I recommend testing, most players wont notice the difference

Dersaidin · Post by **Dersaidin** » Mon May 16, 2005 4:20 am

As a rifleman, I agree with Mat3k's sugestion, of removing or lowering the rifles spread.

While the SMG spread may be adjusted to compensate for the accelerated rof, I for one dont think that its enough. That rof means that even if you do miss, it doesnt mean shit cause your next bullet will be fired in next to no time so missing is no big drama.

F1 to the sugestions

Ragnar_40k · Post by **Ragnar_40k** » Mon May 16, 2005 6:03 am

I wonder why you wont to balance wolfrof? Its an option. And when you enable it you know what you do (and what you get). The only thing you should do is to alert players of it.
I guess some will not satisfied until they can modify all stats of all weapons.
How about a cvar b_weaponmatrix where you can set clip size, spread, (headshot)damage, distance falloff and rof for all weapons?

gotenks · Post by **gotenks** » Mon May 16, 2005 6:11 am

i believe some things need ballanced...
shorter panzer time... not bad, could use the RTCW SP Panzer (no warmup but innacurate)
faster rifle/more accurate rifle - one or other not both please ( i like using rifle but an unscoped rifle shouldn't be more deadly then a scoped rifle)
gibbing... don't change this... the higher rof also comes with lower damage??? (imho it should)

Neith · Post by **Neith** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:00 pm

gotenks wrote:faster rifle/more accurate rifle - one or other not both please ( i like using rifle but an unscoped rifle shouldn't be more deadly then a scoped rifle)

without xp the rifle is too overpowered... it's "fine" as it is (imho)

gotenks · Post by **gotenks** » Mon May 16, 2005 12:32 pm

Neith, i agree with you with standard ROF of smg's, but if you increase the smg's and you leave the rifle the same, you end up with equivilent of decreasing the rifle (not the rifle nade mind you)