spawntimers: the thread that will not die.

[bani]

nice strawman.

theres no way to ban spawntimers, and they arent anything like an aimbot or wallhack. they arent even on the same planet, let alone the same universe.

giving everyone access to a spawntimer evens the playing field. returning games to the question of who has better tactics/ingame skills, not who has better scripting ability.

if you want to fix the 'problem', come up with a solution to make spawntimers useless.

[daemord]

nice strawman.

theres no way to ban spawntimers, and they arent anything like an aimbot or wallhack. they arent even on the same planet, let alone the same universe.

giving everyone access to a spawntimer evens the playing field. returning games to the question of who has better tactics/ingame skills, not who has better scripting ability.

if you want to fix the 'problem', come up with a solution to make spawntimers useless.

insult in 1 thread, 5 seconds later ask people to be civil, hmmm

anyway
Heron CAN BE BANNED, okay scripts cant, but heron CAN and nobody has made any attempt to, my point is not using them is based on faith more than anything, just as limiting class's in RTCW was a faith system.

I do not dissaprove of leveling the playing field, nor in turn do i dissaprove of putting spawn timers within et pro (as i said my main argument was its a waste of time)

my point is simply within the rules of the vast majority of leagues spawn timers are STILL banned, wether we can check it or not doesnt change this simple fact, being caught using one (which can be done, server can log team chat, a simple check of team chat would show if ur using a spawn timer or not tbh) you could get kicked from the league, it is not my fault that admins dont go away and check logs, either because they dont have time, cba, or both, the fact is they CAN.
So with this in mind, either rules should be changed, or ET-Pro is effectivly "banned" within these leagues (its technically an external mod with a spawn timer) then we have the other rule were meant to use the latest version of ET-Pro.

This is not a dig at ET-Pro or bani, mainly its a dig at the onslaught of leagues out there, but they all sit here, and this thread is here, so its posted here.

The point in my thread was that steven was saying its okay to use spawn timers as the admins "dont know about it" using the same thinking its okay to do whatever i want, so long as admins dont know, or dont find out.
If something is banned, for whatever reason, agree or dissagree, then tbh, its banned, if you choose to break the rules because "you cant be caught" then your as bad as these people using those lates aim bots which cannot be detected by ET-Pro or PB, the admins not finding out is no excuse to break the rules, the ONLY thing implementing the spawn timer into ET-Pro does, is encourage people that this is okay.

Its like me going, there is a wallhack, that alot of people are using, that cant be detected, so we should have a wallhack in ET-Pro to "level the playing field".

tbh bani is right about 1 thing, rather than saying its okay to do this, a solution should be found.

as for the +/- 5 second thing, im not sure you understood what i meant kendle what i mean is basicly for instance say atm axis spawn at say 30, with this new system, each and every spawn is randomized between 25 and 35, thus a 10 second gap, on average still on 30, yeh it could add a little lotto effect, but not so much as it would ruin time based attacks, or tbh ruin defence that much, we have all hit unlucky spawns before, dont think this would make to much difference to that, it could even be in a cvar /b_randomspawntime this way it could be set to 0 for normal, or adjusted by the leagues to a value that is comfortable, maybee it needs to be higher, maybee lower.

Its not an ideal solution, but then is any solution, its about the best compremise between random spawn times, and solid spawn times, and like with everything else, we either sit debating spawn timers till were blue in the face, or do something about it, and tbh i do not thing integrating a spawn timer, is the right thing to do about it.

[Kendle]

as for the +/- 5 second thing, im not sure you understood what i meant kendle what i mean is basicly for instance say atm axis spawn at say 30, with this new system, each and every spawn is randomized between 25 and 35, thus a 10 second gap, on average still on 30, yeh it could add a little lotto effect, but not so much as it would ruin time based attacks, or tbh ruin defence that much, we have all hit unlucky spawns before, dont think this would make to much difference to that, it could even be in a cvar /b_randomspawntime this way it could be set to 0 for normal, or adjusted by the leagues to a value that is comfortable, maybee it needs to be higher, maybee lower.

Ah, yeah, I did misunderstand. Members of the same team NOT spawning together would make things like the Oasis flag grab virtually impossible, not to mention /kill'ing to re-group etc., so as long as they all spawn at the same time, just not always the same amount of time after the last one, that could be OK.

Not sure how it would ultimately effect the dynamics of the game though. A large part of offense is effective spawn-camping. Not exactly in the spirit of fair play maybe, but nevertheless, putting the defenders into spawn and then camping the shit out of them while you do whatever it is you need to do is part and parcel of the game. I fear random spawn times would aid defense more than attack and swing the balance back to defense favoured maps, which we've all been working hard to overcome.

[daemord]

not really, i mean when our panza spawn camps, its more about getting into position and waiting for the invun to wear off, only dif is instead of a 0 second window, you got a 10 second "window", like i say could need adjusting, say 2.5 might be better, to provide a 5 second window, in a clan match 5 seconds is a LONG time, short enough not to affect dynamics, but long enough to shove out spawn camping, and given as how were obsessed with discussing publics within et-pro, no reason why on publics it couldnt be set to something silly, like 10, giving a 20 second window, all i say is test it, if it works, give bani another pat on the back for another job well done, if it doesnt we all go back to the drawing board.

[bani]

you cant ban spawntimers.

ban heron, people use other external programs.
ban all external programs, people use scripts.
ban scripts, people will just use a clock sitting on top of their computer, a programmable watch, etc.

in the end, 'banning' spawntimers achieves nothing. because you don't stop anyone from timing spawns.

i will reiterate: if there's a problem with spawntiming then come up with something to make spawntimers pointless.

[daemord]

i will reiterate: if there's a problem with spawntiming then come up with something to make spawntimers pointless.

I just did.

[bani]

good, now try to convince the leagues its a good idea.

have fun!

[bani]

Not sure how it would ultimately effect the dynamics of the game though. A large part of offense is effective spawn-camping. Not exactly in the spirit of fair play maybe, but nevertheless, putting the defenders into spawn and then camping the shit out of them while you do whatever it is you need to do is part and parcel of the game.

the real questions should be:

• is spawncamping a positive aspect of the game?
• is this the way the game has to operate? (eg there is no reasonable alternative)
• would the game change for the better or worse if it was altered?
• is anyone even willing to playtest alternatives?

my guess is most will answer yes for the first two, worse for the third, and absolute no for the last.

no point in even exploring any alternatives -- let alone coding anything -- unless theres enough players who are open to the idea and would make it worthwhile to bother testing anything.

[daemord]

good, now try to convince the leagues its a good idea.

have fun!

ah now yes, been there done that with a variety of different things, i remember having a rather long argument with 1 league about CB settings, which they dug there heals in, said they werent gonna change, and then on the night 5 mins before matches, decided oh they would change after all.

Convincing leagues to do anything i have quickly discovered is like slamming your head against a brick wall, then placing it in a meat grinder, and finally allowing it to be used as a speed bump for 3 month (then normally they do it of there own bat anyway, im convinced just to be spiteful)

As im sure you must feel when talking to some of us at times (when talking to me probably as well)

But as ive said the analogy of "its pointless" could be used for a variety of other things, you could go Ban aim bots, people make undetectable ones, detect them, people rewrite the code, so they cant, so since people can always use aimbots, we should all have aimbots in ET-Pro, if some1 was to seriously suggest this option, we would all flame them rather heavily, and i know aimbots, wallhacks, and other things are completely different, as of course, they cant be scripted in game, but the analogy does hold true, for all the leagues out there i emplore you realise this simple fact, wether we agree or dissagree that certain things are or are not cheating, if we get into the school of though "its pointless so why bother" we are on a 1 way street to destroying everything, everyone has worked so hard to acheive.

[daemord]

Not sure how it would ultimately effect the dynamics of the game though. A large part of offense is effective spawn-camping. Not exactly in the spirit of fair play maybe, but nevertheless, putting the defenders into spawn and then camping the shit out of them while you do whatever it is you need to do is part and parcel of the game.

the real questions should be:

• is spawncamping a positive aspect of the game?
• is this the way the game has to operate? (eg there is no reasonable alternative)
• would the game change for the better or worse if it was altered?
• is anyone even willing to playtest alternatives?

my guess is most will answer yes for the first two, worse for the third, and absolute no for the last.

agreed on that score, as to what people will probably put.
And in the past i myself would have probably answered that, however one thing Bani and kendle have taught me, is we should try new things so i would answer

1) It can be, but mostly only for offence to do it to defence (although i doubt at the time defence would feel that way :p)
2) And this is where both of you have taught me different, certainly NOT
3) only way of finding out is to do 4)
4) Most certainly, im always willing to try new things, give me a server to try it on, and ill try it, tbh its stupid not to try, only thing is in order to properly test it, it HAS to be 2 equally skilled clans, in a clan match scenario, now this is harder to find, as finding an individual is easy, finding 2 clans, thats hard, and if there not equally skilled, you will never know if the change had anything to do with anything, or if it was the skill gap.

oh and you missed on bani

5) Is there a cat in hells chance we can convince the leagues

[Kendle]

I'd have to agree with you on all points Bani, unfortunately.

I don't like spawn-camping, but it's an effective attacking strategy. Make it so it isn't and you make the game less offense friendly, which is the opposite of what all the changes made so far have been designed to do.

I take your point about Panzer etc., Dae, in that camping is often "lie in wait until they spawn" as opposed to precise timing per se, although most Field-Ops would disagree!

It's a tricky one and I'm not sure it's the most pressing issue atm. To a certain extent camping is map specific, so making maps where camping isn't effective would be another way of addressing the issue.

edit: Dae, how did you manage to post twice in the time it took me to type that

[bani]

if we get into the school of though "its pointless so why bother" we are on a 1 way street to destroying everything, everyone has worked so hard to acheive.

we can detect wallhacks/aimbots/etc because those will forever be tied to software.

it's truly impossible to detect spawntimers, eg real world ones, which are just as effective as any ingame one.

if you can tell me a way to detect real world spawntimers, i'll gladly remove the etpro one

it's not getting into any school of thought, it's simply realizing some things are too pointless/silly to fight. spawntimers is one of them. wallhacks/aimbots isnt.

[bani]

I don't like spawn-camping, but it's an effective attacking strategy. Make it so it isn't and you make the game less offense friendly

unless you give the offense alternatives.

[fretn]

Heron CAN BE BANNED, okay scripts cant, but heron CAN and nobody has made any attempt to, my point is not using them is based on faith more than anything, just as limiting class's in RTCW was a faith system.

I only have to say 'HOP' and there's a HERON wich doesn't set a ingame cvar

[daemord]

as per request

re: kendle
Im fast :p
re: Bani and spawntimers
Your point is well taken, at times i just think its all to easy to fob off as "its pointless so why bother", i reckon we should bother, not to stop them as you have rightly said, but come up with an alternative, the problem isnt coming up with an alternative imo, so much as it is convincing the majority of players/ league admins, to take on the idea, we can come up with idea's till were blue in the face, everything from subtle, to extreme, but as you rightly said bani, convincing the admins, that is a completely different idea all together.

As for another option, one thing that could be done, is the ability to delay your own spawn pointless imo, but it is an idea, that has been suggested, my suggestion of a controled randomized spawn (ie +/- cvar value), both of which may help, dont know tbh, but imo we need to actually try some of these suggestions, and we cant try them, in order to convince a league if there good or bad, if there not available for us to try.