goldrush has
4 barriers
tank
truck
bank doors
gold 1
gold 2
commandpost
3 mg42s
fueldump isnt an extreme example by any means.
ETpro suggestions
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the problem is what do you do with maps that havent been coded, ignore them, not allow them, have all the flags, have non of the flags, have random flags, you cannot code for map specifics, i would say you have to code genericly, and you cant pin point stages genericly, and even if you do some people will still argue it, i mean take fuel dump, maybee you could say once a main moveable is past an objective turn it off, well personally i wouldnt want the bridge turning off, as you can still blow it up and cause the allies head aches as they have to rebuild it to come over, use the fence hop, or go all the way around, either route buying you time, so now your saying once it is so far past an objective turn it off, blah blah blah, headache coding for bani and his team, and like it or not even if fuel dump is an extreme example it is a map, it is played (especially with new settings) and so you have to account for it, no point simply dismissing it as an extreme example.
Don't really have much to add to this, as I think opinions have been stated clearly already.
A note on the RtCW sounds though. As pointed out the sounds are copyrighted and use of them in any other game, as opposed to a mod for the same game, is a matter of negotiation with the copyright holder. Apart from that it's really simple to create a soundpack, and with the http download feature it's fast to download as well, provided the server-client connection is fast enough for it. Anybody could create a sound mod, and distribute it. Problem would of course be to agree on ONE soundpack, so that people wont have to download an endless amount of sound packs.
It would be easier for alot of people if it was included in the ETPro mod, but I don't think that's a sufficient reason for Bani to deal with it, when somebody else could do it just as easily.
Talk to Gray Matter/id Software about it. Go-ahead given then get to work.
(for the record, rtcw weapon sounds + 2 minute as well as 30 seconds remaining announcer + dynamite planted and dynamite defused sounds sizes about 1.6MB)
If ppl want new sounds or not is of course a question depending on personal preferences.
Btw, have a nice week all.
A note on the RtCW sounds though. As pointed out the sounds are copyrighted and use of them in any other game, as opposed to a mod for the same game, is a matter of negotiation with the copyright holder. Apart from that it's really simple to create a soundpack, and with the http download feature it's fast to download as well, provided the server-client connection is fast enough for it. Anybody could create a sound mod, and distribute it. Problem would of course be to agree on ONE soundpack, so that people wont have to download an endless amount of sound packs.
It would be easier for alot of people if it was included in the ETPro mod, but I don't think that's a sufficient reason for Bani to deal with it, when somebody else could do it just as easily.
Talk to Gray Matter/id Software about it. Go-ahead given then get to work.
(for the record, rtcw weapon sounds + 2 minute as well as 30 seconds remaining announcer + dynamite planted and dynamite defused sounds sizes about 1.6MB)If ppl want new sounds or not is of course a question depending on personal preferences.
Btw, have a nice week all.
-= I'm so hip I'm having difficulties seeing over my pelvis =-<br>
Ex-Galactic President Zaphod Beeblebrox
Ex-Galactic President Zaphod Beeblebrox
well, i've been thinking about it, and if you're going to list every objective in every map, you could do one of two things:
first off, forget the mg-42 builds, they're pointless to add to an objective flag hud.
option 1: for things such as duplicate objectives (i.e. 2 golds on goldrush, 2 tank barriers, 2 truck barriers) have a split flag, from corner to corner.
this would cut down on the ammount of flags needed to mark all of these objectives as seen here:
or list them side by side, with duplicate objectives next to each other if neccesary.
i'm not sure how difficult it would be to code something like my screenshot, but i know it would be effective and be alot smaller.
first off, forget the mg-42 builds, they're pointless to add to an objective flag hud.
option 1: for things such as duplicate objectives (i.e. 2 golds on goldrush, 2 tank barriers, 2 truck barriers) have a split flag, from corner to corner.
this would cut down on the ammount of flags needed to mark all of these objectives as seen here:
or list them side by side, with duplicate objectives next to each other if neccesary.
i'm not sure how difficult it would be to code something like my screenshot, but i know it would be effective and be alot smaller.
Last edited by NewdeaL on Tue Apr 27, 2004 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
)) NewdeaL
diezel: thanks for reminding me, but i belive i mentioned the main gate/depot gate. add another split flag for the side walls, and 1 for the cp, 7 flags. depending on the size of these flags, its not a whole helluva lot of space on the hud, and i'm also willing to sacrifice it for quick reference (unlike the command map/limbo menu, which completely blocks your view gotenks).
another note for sd (supplydepot) you could probably even get rid of the crane control flag, because if you build it, it activates just by an allied players presence, nothing more. or again, use a split flag for crane controls/gold on the truck to bring the number of flags down.
i know some of you are looking for reasons why this isnt a good idea, or why its not "neccessary", but it is a good idea, and it is neccessary. there is less of a "need" for the objective flags in rtcw than ET, because of the smaller ammount of map objectives in RtCW than ET, ET being harder to keep track of which barriers are up etc.
the main reason i want something like this is simple: the announcers are not accurate, given there's a battle for the flag and/or delay's in the announcer's announcement, if you will.
id like to see a "test" version of it, with objectives that could be easily decided upon, leaving out the little things like the 2 mg-42 build boxes on oasis, and both command posts left out (since their purpose isnt for spawning, purely charge speed)
another idea for objective "flag" representation would be something like this: (it just came to me so i opened up ET and mspaint :p)
the first square would represent the first closest objective to the spawn area
So on and so forth
And...
i hope this might be suitable for some of you =]
another note for sd (supplydepot) you could probably even get rid of the crane control flag, because if you build it, it activates just by an allied players presence, nothing more. or again, use a split flag for crane controls/gold on the truck to bring the number of flags down.
i know some of you are looking for reasons why this isnt a good idea, or why its not "neccessary", but it is a good idea, and it is neccessary. there is less of a "need" for the objective flags in rtcw than ET, because of the smaller ammount of map objectives in RtCW than ET, ET being harder to keep track of which barriers are up etc.
the main reason i want something like this is simple: the announcers are not accurate, given there's a battle for the flag and/or delay's in the announcer's announcement, if you will.
id like to see a "test" version of it, with objectives that could be easily decided upon, leaving out the little things like the 2 mg-42 build boxes on oasis, and both command posts left out (since their purpose isnt for spawning, purely charge speed)
another idea for objective "flag" representation would be something like this: (it just came to me so i opened up ET and mspaint :p)
the first square would represent the first closest objective to the spawn area
So on and so forth
And...
i hope this might be suitable for some of you =]
)) NewdeaL
sorry, but.. ugh.
the blocks/flags carry no useful information at all about the importance of an objective, objective type, etc. unlike rtcw where the objectives were very simple and few, theres a bazillion objectives in ET and they vary in importance. i bet there wont even be a consensus among players for what objectives should be considered important and which ones not.
the flags were marginally useful in rtcw. in et they would be borderline useless.
ok so you say, lets make them objective icons then. so now you have 2 flags, 3 dynamite icons, 4 barriers, etc. which is which?
unless you can see at a glance which *specific* objective is which status, it's only marginally helpful. a grid of team flags is no more useful to me to guage overall status than the fireteam is when its showing C,6 J,8 ...
i do think its possible to make some sort of abbreviated hud display for this stuff, but so far the proposed designs are unimpressive.
the blocks/flags carry no useful information at all about the importance of an objective, objective type, etc. unlike rtcw where the objectives were very simple and few, theres a bazillion objectives in ET and they vary in importance. i bet there wont even be a consensus among players for what objectives should be considered important and which ones not.
the flags were marginally useful in rtcw. in et they would be borderline useless.
ok so you say, lets make them objective icons then. so now you have 2 flags, 3 dynamite icons, 4 barriers, etc. which is which?
unless you can see at a glance which *specific* objective is which status, it's only marginally helpful. a grid of team flags is no more useful to me to guage overall status than the fireteam is when its showing C,6 J,8 ...
i do think its possible to make some sort of abbreviated hud display for this stuff, but so far the proposed designs are unimpressive.
gotenks: there's 12 markers because i copy/pasted the b_althud 0 rank box (with the stars) just for an idea of what i'm trying to get thru to you....dont take my rough draft so seriously...and if you have a problem remembering 5 obj's in rtcw, then you shouldnt be playing ET.
oh, and thanks alot for knocking my effort. i dont see anyone else throwing out ideas like this, yet my effort is "unimpressive". i'm going to try to not take that personally, but its quite hard for me to do that right now. there were no labels of any kind for the flags in rtcw, so why should there be here in ET. you say they were marginally usefull in rtcw because you never competed in rtcw, therefore, never relied on them like myself and others. there even more usefull here, in ET. i'm trying to spitball ideas, maybe make you think of something you havent before, and be able to incoorporate this into the game, but you wont, and made up your mind before i spent half the day with my mediocre mspaint skills to draw up these pics.
gotenks: i belive bani has enough people sweating his nuts, i'm sure with you, they're dragging on the ground right now. so please, try to form an opinion of your own, rather than saying exactly what bani said, only dressed up and a fancy hat.
oh, and thanks alot for knocking my effort. i dont see anyone else throwing out ideas like this, yet my effort is "unimpressive". i'm going to try to not take that personally, but its quite hard for me to do that right now. there were no labels of any kind for the flags in rtcw, so why should there be here in ET. you say they were marginally usefull in rtcw because you never competed in rtcw, therefore, never relied on them like myself and others. there even more usefull here, in ET. i'm trying to spitball ideas, maybe make you think of something you havent before, and be able to incoorporate this into the game, but you wont, and made up your mind before i spent half the day with my mediocre mspaint skills to draw up these pics.
you're the mod maker, it'd be up to you and a little COMMON SENSEbani wrote:i bet there wont even be a consensus among players for what objectives should be considered important and which ones not.
gotenks: i belive bani has enough people sweating his nuts, i'm sure with you, they're dragging on the ground right now. so please, try to form an opinion of your own, rather than saying exactly what bani said, only dressed up and a fancy hat.
)) NewdeaL
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KingJackaL
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OK, I'm bored, so I'll try and explain a basic principles or two that applies to HCI/UI design, and why it makes your idea bad. It's not that your ATTEMPT is bad, or your idea 'stupid' per-say. But there are limitations with human beings that you have to take into account.NewdeaL wrote:gotenks: there's 12 markers because i copy/pasted the b_althud 0 rank box (with the stars) just for an idea of what i'm trying to get thru to you....dont take my rough draft so seriously...and if you have a problem remembering 5 obj's in rtcw, then you shouldnt be playing ET.
Memory chunking
You've probably heard this before, but here's a refresher. On average, a human can remember 7 things plus or minus 2. What this means is, your average bloke (or chick) will be able to memorise a list of 7 things easily. Any more than this, and they just won't - they'll have to break it up into sub-lists, or spend a lot more time both memorising the info, and in recalling the info. The plus or minus 2 refers to dumber and smarter people respectively.
So a list of 5 things in RTCW is very easy to remember - 5 things is fast to remember, and easy to recall. However, a list of say 12 things is well past that magic 7 (no, it's not a hard limit - but 12 is way over). This means people just won't remember what all the things were.
Mapping Complexity
There is also a mapping inherant in your design, as well as RTCW's. And it is one that grows in complexity with scale very quickly. By mapping, I mean how the user assotiates each 'icon' with what it really represents. Putting little text labels on things so it's explicite does not eliminate this mapping, it just provides a (slower) alternative means of recalling what is what.
With 5 icons, again, remembering what is what isn't TOO bad. Note that the mapping task is more complex than the above task of just remembering. You have to remember ORDER as well. If the icons are say 'pump, pump2, wall, gun, gun2' then it's no use remembering those, but not knowing in which order they fall. Otherwise if #3 lights up... which one is it?
Now, with 12 similar icons, you make the mapping EXTREMELY complex. This could be aleviated somewhat by grouping the icons into classes, like having build objectives with a pliers icon that goes red/blue, dyna objectives with a dyna icon etc. But even so. with the number of objectives in ET, the mapping remains extremely complex.
Confusion over 'important' objectives
There are several 'improvements' you could make via only showing 'primary' objectives. But as bani alluded to, many players would disagree on what objectives are 'primary'. I mean, you can win Fuel Dump without building the bridge, blowing the caves, the main wall or even the defenses. Easy. So... there's 1 objective?
Certainly, the extremely linear maps like Gold Rush don't suffer from this so badly... but in their case you've now got the 4 barriers, 2 vehicles, 2 crates etc as has been mentioned - the list gets long fast.
Compatibility with all maps
There are also possible 'improvements' by saying 'aha - we could have a single barrier icon, with 1-2-3-4 displayed for which barrier its up to' etc etc etc. And ok, these sound pretty good at first. Until you realise that you're not solving the problem. You're solving ONE MAP. Any approach taken MUST support all the maps out there, and indeed - future maps too.
ETPro being a competition mod, this is of particular note. My league, for example, ran 7 maps this season. ONE was a standard map (radar). Now we're a little bit more customs-friendly than most leagues, but regardless - many leagues are using customs, and many are continuing to evaluate new and emerging customs for future use.
So using specific map knowledge isn't valid unless the mod could easily parse this directly out of the pk3 with the map in it.
Conclusion
What this all means is not that it's impossible to show these icons on the HUD. Technically there's nothing to it. I'm sure the ETPro team would have no problems whatsoever implementing a system whereby a 10x10 grid of objective icons is overlaid and updated, showing the status of every objective, player, mine, dyna.... But that's not the point - the point is that such a system would be UNUSABLE for the human beings in the system.
You need to stop thinking 'Ive got a new HUD layout that shows objectives', and more 'Ive found a way of better representing map data in a concise way'.
/me shrugs
Just some thoughts...
$0.02
you say since it was usefull in rtcw it's usefull in et? et has a command map, rtcw didn't, a command map is VERY usefull, when i go back to play rtcw i miss it soo much especially on newer maps that i haven't played in a long time if ever. 5 was easy to remember on beach, axis complex, assault, maps i played alot, but i'm talking about these wierd maps that get played on a few servers, that will make them pretty much useless... You say we're lookign for reasons it's useless or un-nessecary? perhaps because most of us do find it useless? I personally competed in rtcw and in ET, i like the way et's command map works... your not underfire constantly, so there are times you can check it. Also if you notice, i'm not attacking you, i'm just saying i don't like your idea, so please dont' attack me back because i'm not jumping for joy for another thing that most people would turn off...
The only on-screen objective icon I can see of being any real use in matches would be for spawn points controlled by flags or command posts. Even then it would get messy on maps with multiple contested spawns such as Radar.
As for objectives I don't mean to sound harsh but you should try to be aware of what's going on in the game when you're playing a match. I know it can be hard with all those bullets and bombs whizzing around but hey, that's war!
As for objectives I don't mean to sound harsh but you should try to be aware of what's going on in the game when you're playing a match. I know it can be hard with all those bullets and bombs whizzing around but hey, that's war!