Yea, hitting a wall with a riflenade. MADSK33LZ!!1
Any experienced rtcw-player could pick up a panzer and be great with it. Because it didn`t take much skill, only experience. I have demos to prove it.
[deo]jops: if you cant come up with any arguments, but just attack the person, or analyze the reasons for his arguments, just stfu. It`s called 'being an ass'.
ETpro suggestions
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DSky.kotkis
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 1:50 am
Honour the flames of Internet and join the party.
On the other hand I see few U.S players who I suspect to be playing the game on quite high competitive status (but not the highest possible? I don't know the U.S-scene so well so pardon) and on the other hand I see few not-so-high-level-players. The high level U.S players have provided few weak arguments of how rifle nades require no skill and how they should be nerfed or removed totally, apparently they're admiring the ET done Euro-style and they're hoping to adapt the new euro rules to cut the nasty spam away(?). Mostly their strongest argument seems to be "we play the game on high level, we know the game better, rifle nades are for noobs!". I for myself have been playing the game on the highest possible level for well over half a year, so I thought about giving a little contrast to this little flame war :)
The problem of Bedrock is that he doesn't realize that the concept skill is multidimensional. You can't compare the skill that rifle nades require to the skill that smg requires. Rifle nades are a tactical weapon, just like mines are. When used too much they can make the game pretty fucked up, and I think this is what has happened for the U.S fellows when they chose not to evolve their rules and sticked up to the 7v7 format. When there are more players all these tactical weapons become more and more efficient, and they lose the tactical feeling. The game becomes a spam fest.
However you should not be blinded by these wicked up settings you've been forced to use :P. I can honestly say that rifle nade indeed takes a lot of skill to master, a lot more than the lame ET-panzer. Actually I can't quite use the rifle nades myself even though I've tried praccing them. On clan wars they're a nice weapon in the right hands.
This reflects the major difference between the Euro-settings and the US-settings. In Euro-settings no weapon is used as a spam. Every move you make is significant so you can't waste your time on doing something useless. Our tempo is a bit slower than it is in the US, but it gives us more time to think. Actually I would call the US-playing style pretty dumbish, it's just endless stream of spam and unplanned attacks. In Europe we have carefully prepared attacking tactics, in US you have merelly attacking guides which give you only a tip how the things should be done. In such conditions as these, one rifle nade can make the difference. They're used to open up routes, to get the one key link in the enemys defence broken. I can also correct the one thing that always seems to be misunderstood when comparing 6v6 and 7v7 formats: covert ops are used in the euro style of play. All of the top euro teams have used or use covert ops in quite many occasions mostly to spot mines.
Now to clear this up a bit: How do I know how ET is played in US? Well I've watched quite many demos, and I haven't seen attacking plans even close to the ones we have in Europe. We've also played a scrim against Rotators (I think they're quite good in the US?) with US settings ("fixed" spawn times, US-server, 6v6). The match was a gg even though it was quite a chaos with the spamm-allowing-server-settings even with 6v6. We couldn't organize a single attack with all that arty and panzer spam and those "fixed" spawn times, but luckily we made it through which Rotators couldn't even though they were very close. Conclusion -> you can't play organized with the US settings :)
Anyway, I think there's no need to limit rifle nades at all, they're not a problem in europe. I think they require skill, but not in the way smg fighting does, and I surely don't want to see them used on public. But on clan wars I can respect a skilled rifle man. US people should just try to get rid of their wicked settings and everything should be fine.
On the other hand I see few U.S players who I suspect to be playing the game on quite high competitive status (but not the highest possible? I don't know the U.S-scene so well so pardon) and on the other hand I see few not-so-high-level-players. The high level U.S players have provided few weak arguments of how rifle nades require no skill and how they should be nerfed or removed totally, apparently they're admiring the ET done Euro-style and they're hoping to adapt the new euro rules to cut the nasty spam away(?). Mostly their strongest argument seems to be "we play the game on high level, we know the game better, rifle nades are for noobs!". I for myself have been playing the game on the highest possible level for well over half a year, so I thought about giving a little contrast to this little flame war :)
The problem of Bedrock is that he doesn't realize that the concept skill is multidimensional. You can't compare the skill that rifle nades require to the skill that smg requires. Rifle nades are a tactical weapon, just like mines are. When used too much they can make the game pretty fucked up, and I think this is what has happened for the U.S fellows when they chose not to evolve their rules and sticked up to the 7v7 format. When there are more players all these tactical weapons become more and more efficient, and they lose the tactical feeling. The game becomes a spam fest.
However you should not be blinded by these wicked up settings you've been forced to use :P. I can honestly say that rifle nade indeed takes a lot of skill to master, a lot more than the lame ET-panzer. Actually I can't quite use the rifle nades myself even though I've tried praccing them. On clan wars they're a nice weapon in the right hands.
This reflects the major difference between the Euro-settings and the US-settings. In Euro-settings no weapon is used as a spam. Every move you make is significant so you can't waste your time on doing something useless. Our tempo is a bit slower than it is in the US, but it gives us more time to think. Actually I would call the US-playing style pretty dumbish, it's just endless stream of spam and unplanned attacks. In Europe we have carefully prepared attacking tactics, in US you have merelly attacking guides which give you only a tip how the things should be done. In such conditions as these, one rifle nade can make the difference. They're used to open up routes, to get the one key link in the enemys defence broken. I can also correct the one thing that always seems to be misunderstood when comparing 6v6 and 7v7 formats: covert ops are used in the euro style of play. All of the top euro teams have used or use covert ops in quite many occasions mostly to spot mines.
Now to clear this up a bit: How do I know how ET is played in US? Well I've watched quite many demos, and I haven't seen attacking plans even close to the ones we have in Europe. We've also played a scrim against Rotators (I think they're quite good in the US?) with US settings ("fixed" spawn times, US-server, 6v6). The match was a gg even though it was quite a chaos with the spamm-allowing-server-settings even with 6v6. We couldn't organize a single attack with all that arty and panzer spam and those "fixed" spawn times, but luckily we made it through which Rotators couldn't even though they were very close. Conclusion -> you can't play organized with the US settings :)
Anyway, I think there's no need to limit rifle nades at all, they're not a problem in europe. I think they require skill, but not in the way smg fighting does, and I surely don't want to see them used on public. But on clan wars I can respect a skilled rifle man. US people should just try to get rid of their wicked settings and everything should be fine.
First off, I do hold respect for you/Dsky considering you are a top Euro team.
From watching Euro demo's.. I've come to the conclusion that Euro's play for the game, play for fun, and most importantly play for the competiton. I may be wrong on that, correct me if you must.
Being North American, I've come to the conclusion that NA teams will do anything to win, anything to talk shit, anything to just hold the top title. None of it is for the game, none for the competition. Thus, you get NA teams just running PF's on defense, JUST to kill an engineer then /kill. Why? Because it will win the match! No engie = No boom = No win for allies! Why do they do this? To win, just to hold that "#_" Title. Teams in NA just won't play for the competition.
Most of the top teams think that a crossfire is this: Let your PF vap himself into an engie, while the rest of the team just sits back not even taking damage.
Syndrom (my team) has supported 6v6 w/ euro settings since we've started up. We've put alot of work/time into communication/strats/ whatever it may be.
After getting blown up through cal, chances are this will be our last season. NA Leagues are not making a huge effort to make the gameplay its best.
After not sleeping for... (32?) hours, I'm guessing this was mainly a rant (the above.)... But keep this in mind: People can master a riflenade in a week, those same people won't even come close to a decent smg shot in a year.
From watching Euro demo's.. I've come to the conclusion that Euro's play for the game, play for fun, and most importantly play for the competiton. I may be wrong on that, correct me if you must.
Being North American, I've come to the conclusion that NA teams will do anything to win, anything to talk shit, anything to just hold the top title. None of it is for the game, none for the competition. Thus, you get NA teams just running PF's on defense, JUST to kill an engineer then /kill. Why? Because it will win the match! No engie = No boom = No win for allies! Why do they do this? To win, just to hold that "#_" Title. Teams in NA just won't play for the competition.
Most of the top teams think that a crossfire is this: Let your PF vap himself into an engie, while the rest of the team just sits back not even taking damage.
Syndrom (my team) has supported 6v6 w/ euro settings since we've started up. We've put alot of work/time into communication/strats/ whatever it may be.
After getting blown up through cal, chances are this will be our last season. NA Leagues are not making a huge effort to make the gameplay its best.
After not sleeping for... (32?) hours, I'm guessing this was mainly a rant (the above.)... But keep this in mind: People can master a riflenade in a week, those same people won't even come close to a decent smg shot in a year.
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IdNotFound
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:21 pm
- Location: Brazil
- Contact:
Excuse me, I'd like to make a point here. I am from Brazil, and even though I can't say my clan is one of the best ones, specially because we have very few of them, I think it doesn't hurt to show your point politely. Specially because I'm not directly envolved with this. (BTW, if it matters to you, here we currently use 6v6 *with* spam, or something more close to that)
I've seen demos from ingame.de etcup (euro competition) and I've played american clans (ok, not necessarily top, but I did play with quite a few, including Syndrom, which I don't believe will fall into the comments I will be making).
Leaving 6v6 and 7v7 apart, I'd say euro's have more disputed and clean matches. We see strategies, we see gun fights, we see skill. With most americans, you see lots of panzers running free, camping here and there.
I don't see it as noobish or anything, please don't take me wrong. But while euros believe in the strength of the team as a whole, americans tend to believe in individual ability. It's a different approach. If that panzer gets 3 out of respawn, the others will much probably be outgunned. If not, usually you got trouble.
That may be the difference between the euro scene and the NA scene. Spam around, and you won't have to care so much about your teamplay as you would sitting back with SMG's and waiting to kill and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, gib each of them without leaving the objetive unprotected. I really believe the hardest part is gibbing, because you lose time and bullets, and if you don't do it, you may kill the whole team and get owned 5 seconds later if they got at least one medic. Spam/splash doesn't require gibbing.
That is what I think: the approach is different, and not necessarily the rules, as I've seen euro games *with* spam settings and the teams didn't spam. Maybe the so called euro-rules being accepted by the american leagues will make everybody face the game in a different way, and THAT should raise the skill of each one.
Just a reminder: not talking about any clans in particular, just what I've seen so far. We play with 200-250ms, and even before etpro 3.0.1 (which is not yet magic, but a LOT better) clans went the "easy/spam/splash way" to stop us. The top american clans may play it differently, so I'm sorry if that's the case (Syndrom for example, that just used SMGs as far as I remember)
I've seen demos from ingame.de etcup (euro competition) and I've played american clans (ok, not necessarily top, but I did play with quite a few, including Syndrom, which I don't believe will fall into the comments I will be making).
Leaving 6v6 and 7v7 apart, I'd say euro's have more disputed and clean matches. We see strategies, we see gun fights, we see skill. With most americans, you see lots of panzers running free, camping here and there.
I don't see it as noobish or anything, please don't take me wrong. But while euros believe in the strength of the team as a whole, americans tend to believe in individual ability. It's a different approach. If that panzer gets 3 out of respawn, the others will much probably be outgunned. If not, usually you got trouble.
That may be the difference between the euro scene and the NA scene. Spam around, and you won't have to care so much about your teamplay as you would sitting back with SMG's and waiting to kill and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, gib each of them without leaving the objetive unprotected. I really believe the hardest part is gibbing, because you lose time and bullets, and if you don't do it, you may kill the whole team and get owned 5 seconds later if they got at least one medic. Spam/splash doesn't require gibbing.
That is what I think: the approach is different, and not necessarily the rules, as I've seen euro games *with* spam settings and the teams didn't spam. Maybe the so called euro-rules being accepted by the american leagues will make everybody face the game in a different way, and THAT should raise the skill of each one.
Just a reminder: not talking about any clans in particular, just what I've seen so far. We play with 200-250ms, and even before etpro 3.0.1 (which is not yet magic, but a LOT better) clans went the "easy/spam/splash way" to stop us. The top american clans may play it differently, so I'm sorry if that's the case (Syndrom for example, that just used SMGs as far as I remember)
nZ/IdNotFoundyou are wrong.........to a certain extentPeople can master a riflenade in a week, those same people won't even come close to a decent smg shot in a year.
most of the noobs pick it up cause they can't compete with better smg'ers, but there are many many people that are extremely good with a SMG, and in turn pick up the riflenade for something else to become good at......
i'm not the "best" smg'er, but i'm not terrible........i usually have as many or 50% more headshots than kills..........and i'm not spraying bullets, that's what i shoot for is the head.
i'm not trying to change your mind, your opinion is based on what you've seen...........just letting you know, there are many people out there that are the best smg'ers on the team using a riflenade.......why? cause the SMG's get pretty boring after awhile......
and i take it you have mastered the riflenade? cause you have been playing for quite sometime, so i take it you mastered it in like the first couple weeks of playing ET?
(sarcasm intended, hehehe )
What's the max number of objectives on a current map? A usable number of flags would be around 4-6 I think. It's up to the map-maker to apply the with reason. Limit them to larger/main objectives. Explodables and flags perhaps. I think it could work very well if done right.
couldnt agree more.
gotenks: you listed every minor objective on the map, which is unneccesary to say the least.
objectives to consider for an "objective flag" representation on the hud:
cp (if spawnable only)
spawn flag
dyno objectives
tankbarriers/bridges neccesary for the continuation of the map (i.e. fueldump bridge or assault ramp on battery.)
everything else, trucks, truck barriers, foot bridges etc dont need a flag representation. imagine how smoothly oasis would be, if there were a flag for north gun, south gun, old city, and the city wall. there'd be no question as to "who the hell has the flag, the announcer has been ranting for 5 minutes". so please, dont just put this off because it might be difficult, or make excuses like "too many obj's".
couldnt agree more.
gotenks: you listed every minor objective on the map, which is unneccesary to say the least.
objectives to consider for an "objective flag" representation on the hud:
cp (if spawnable only)
spawn flag
dyno objectives
tankbarriers/bridges neccesary for the continuation of the map (i.e. fueldump bridge or assault ramp on battery.)
everything else, trucks, truck barriers, foot bridges etc dont need a flag representation. imagine how smoothly oasis would be, if there were a flag for north gun, south gun, old city, and the city wall. there'd be no question as to "who the hell has the flag, the announcer has been ranting for 5 minutes". so please, dont just put this off because it might be difficult, or make excuses like "too many obj's".
)) NewdeaL
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ulissesnelson
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 3:34 am
- Location: Portugal
- Contact:
Baking to the topic ETpro suggestions
1 funny stuff that like to see in etpro,its a admin power that have on Quake3 Urban terror,that when a admin see that a player its camping or just making shit at the server,instead of kik him fast ,he use a command that the player its grabbed at the air ,like was a god hand take him and nad then u hear in the scree.
player blabla was slaped by the admin
that was a funny stuff to have in the etpro llollo
1 funny stuff that like to see in etpro,its a admin power that have on Quake3 Urban terror,that when a admin see that a player its camping or just making shit at the server,instead of kik him fast ,he use a command that the player its grabbed at the air ,like was a god hand take him and nad then u hear in the scree.
player blabla was slaped by the admin
that was a funny stuff to have in the etpro llollo
Mygamesplayer ET Amin!
Lets go with fuel dumpNewdeaL wrote: objectives to consider for an "objective flag" representation on the hud:
cp (if spawnable only)
spawn flag
dyno objectives
tankbarriers/bridges neccesary for the continuation of the map (i.e. fueldump bridge or assault ramp on battery.)
as your above suggestions here we go
Bridge stage 1
Bridge stage 2
Grate
Allies CP
Main Door to Fuel Dump
Rear entrance to fuel dump
West barrier stage 1
West barrier stage 2
East barrier stage 1
East barrier stage 2
Thats 10 just on fuel dump, all as to your suggestion only Blow upables that are needed to get past in order to complete game and spawnable CP's , please do not forget the amount of double stages that would need recording, like the bridge, to know how many times you in turn need to destroy it, all important aspects and ones you need to consider, fact is after playing ET for so long now, the nice map (dunno what it is by default i have it on ] for easy access) tells you what you need to know, learn to read is, or if you cant ask a team mate who can on voice coms, and let them tell you.
Alright, let's see now.Lets go with fuel dump
as your above suggestions here we go
Bridge stage 1
Bridge stage 2
Grate
Allies CP
Main Door to Fuel Dump
Rear entrance to fuel dump
West barrier stage 1
West barrier stage 2
East barrier stage 1
East barrier stage 2
First of all fuel dump is an extreme example. It's a really big, multi-stage map. Implementing flags well on this map might be as hard as it gets. Providing objective flags will in most cases be much more straightforward than this.
First of all: Fuel dump is a two stage map. After the tunnel door is blown, why keep all the old flags intact? They're no longer relevant and do not need to be on the hud. Start with a clean slate and all the flags visible only flags for the objectives remaining after the tunnel door is blown are needed.
Secondly, why do you need a separate flag for stage 1 of each objective? Use the same flag. Leave it red for untouched, yellow for stage 1, red for stage 2. Or whatever you might prefer.
So if we refer to your list above, this leaves us with 7 flags. Tops. If you remove the redundant ones, it leaves you with 5 after the tunnel door is blown. Not really an insane number, and they could be very clear and uncluttered if done well.
If you haven't played with objecive flags, you don't know what you're missing out on.fact is after playing ET for so long now, the nice map (dunno what it is by default i have it on ] for easy access) tells you what you need to know, learn to read is, or if you cant ask a team mate who can on voice coms, and let them tell you.
I dare to say they would be highly useful even for top level clans. It reduces mistakes, confusion and chatter on TS/vent. Why wonder, why ask, why mistakenly assume when it's right there, in your face, at all times?
If you don't need this at all, good for you. I think you're part of the mentally very aware that never get lost in intense duels and keep track of every objective and announcement no matter the stress and pressure you're under for hours of hours of continuous play.
If this is true, I am fairly certain, that as far as human beings go, you're part of a very small minority. This would be quite useful for the rest of us
I agree with Hypnotoad.
The reason why having objective flags in addition to the objectives displayed on the command map could help is quite obvious imo. When you open the command map, it blocks your whole sight. So it's a risky thing to open the command map while you have to assume that some enemies are nearby. The other problem is that you have to find the right objective first which obviously doesn't take much time but still a bit more than a quick glance at an objective flag at a fixed position. I think a good example is Oasis where you have to take a closer look in order to see which of the two guns is already blown. The time required for that is still short, but it could be much shorter. And without blocking your sight.
I like the idea of having different colors for two-stage objectives. It could also be used to reflect the status of command posts, like on radar. You can actually distinguish 4 different states of that command post (which is also shown on the command map): Empty command post, built by Axis/Allies, partially built by the other team (maybe plus partially built by your own team although that seems to be less important). The last one may seem useless, but as you should know it's a rather common tactic to build the command post just partially in order to prevent the opposing side from blowing it up immediately with a satchel charge or simply because you know you're going to die but you use your last hitpoints in order to slow them down by 30 seconds.
If you're honest; who of you actually knows what the last state I described looks like on the command map...?
I know it because I make use of the command map a lot. But I think if you take this example, using objective flags would not only help getting keeping track of the objectives faster but also make it more intuitive. Like you could use green, yellow, red for different stages of the command post, combined with the flag of one of the two sides.
The reason why having objective flags in addition to the objectives displayed on the command map could help is quite obvious imo. When you open the command map, it blocks your whole sight. So it's a risky thing to open the command map while you have to assume that some enemies are nearby. The other problem is that you have to find the right objective first which obviously doesn't take much time but still a bit more than a quick glance at an objective flag at a fixed position. I think a good example is Oasis where you have to take a closer look in order to see which of the two guns is already blown. The time required for that is still short, but it could be much shorter. And without blocking your sight.
I like the idea of having different colors for two-stage objectives. It could also be used to reflect the status of command posts, like on radar. You can actually distinguish 4 different states of that command post (which is also shown on the command map): Empty command post, built by Axis/Allies, partially built by the other team (maybe plus partially built by your own team although that seems to be less important). The last one may seem useless, but as you should know it's a rather common tactic to build the command post just partially in order to prevent the opposing side from blowing it up immediately with a satchel charge or simply because you know you're going to die but you use your last hitpoints in order to slow them down by 30 seconds.
If you're honest; who of you actually knows what the last state I described looks like on the command map...?
I know it because I make use of the command map a lot. But I think if you take this example, using objective flags would not only help getting keeping track of the objectives faster but also make it more intuitive. Like you could use green, yellow, red for different stages of the command post, combined with the flag of one of the two sides.okay, here is the big problem with what your suggesting now, your wanting custom settings for each map, specifying which objectives to show, and what not to show, so erm what happens when you hit custom maps, or any map which ET Pro doesnt know, all of them on, non of them on, it has to be generic or not at all, now how is the game meant to know what is 1st stage and what is 2nd stage to turn them on or off, yes fuel dump may be an extreme example, but its a map isnt it, your saying lets have these for oasis, but then not fuel dump
As for stating i dont know what playing with these are like, yes i do, i played RTCW since the very first beta test, i know exactly what there like, i just think in ET it would be to aukward for it to be done properly given all the variables to take into consideration for unknown maps
As for stating i dont know what playing with these are like, yes i do, i played RTCW since the very first beta test, i know exactly what there like, i just think in ET it would be to aukward for it to be done properly given all the variables to take into consideration for unknown maps
The amount of maps in question isn't really that large. Only the most popular maps / the ones used in tournaments, need to be added. That's what, 5-10 maps? New maps aren't exactly added by the minute.okay, here is the big problem with what your suggesting now, your wanting custom settings for each map, specifying which objectives to show, and what not to show, so erm what happens when you hit custom maps, or any map which ET Pro doesnt know, all of them on, non of them on, it has to be generic or not at all
The fuel dump example is pretty extreme. Most maps will be much less complicated. So how can it really be that impossible if it can more or less be proven to work there ?i just think in ET it would be to aukward for it to be done properly given all the variables to take into consideration for unknown maps
No it won't instantly work for new/custom/uncommon maps. But support can be added to the maps. Either by the ETpro-team or the mapmakers after the fact, or by letting map makers know how to customize this themselves to their liking during map creation.
I still don't quite see the problem. Except of course that it does require a bit of work to code