Spawn timer support

[uber-noob]

It allows for human error and people do not necesarily have the clarity of mind to update their in-brain counting when a command post is made or destroyed.

Since when do command posts modify the spawn time?

[squadjot]

1. I dont personally use spawntimer..we use ventrilo and the clock..
2. IF the "ETPRO spawntimer" should be a reality and commonly accepted, i think i'd rather prefer Heron4ET. (depends ofc lol)

anyways..ill try stop whining about build-in spawntimers, akward pronedelays.. b_hitsounds turning nades into "spot-detectors" and cheer for the development of ettv instead

edit: anyways...i think until now the issue about even up the "unfair" maps.. has been solved to A+ so far..the extra spawnpoints..extra destructable..etcetc..i think thats the way to go.

[KingJackaL]

Re: 'random' spawn times.

Would a good implimentation be to spawn the enemy at one of several spawn lengths, centered around the 'spawn time'? Example: spawn time for axis set to 30s, the spawn lengths are then set to 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. The server chooses one of those (linear random choice). This makes it impossible to maintain perfect timing on the spawn, but as a server/league admin you'll still be able to control the 'rate' at which either team will be able to spawn.

You would still be able to spawn camp etc, because the spawning happens over a shorter 'window' - but I don't think allowing a large window would help. Then you'd throw in a very large 'lotto' chance on spawning. Example: allies plant the gun on battery having just cleaned up axis, then the axis get a lotto spawn in 5s - there's just too much possibility for matches being won on spawn time luck rather than skill if you make the window too large.

/me goes back to pondering

[ReyalP]

Re: 'random' spawn times.

Would a good implimentation be to spawn the enemy at one of several spawn lengths, centered around the 'spawn time'? Example: spawn time for axis set to 30s, the spawn lengths are then set to 28, 29, 30, 31, 32. The server chooses one of those (linear random choice). This makes it impossible to maintain perfect timing on the spawn, but as a server/league admin you'll still be able to control the 'rate' at which either team will be able to spawn.
...
/me goes back to pondering

Agree. Having a +/-5 second radomization wouldn't really stop spawn timing, and could add a lotto effect to things like diffuses.

Having a random drift (like above but biased for the whole round in the +/- direction) would make spawn timing harder, but would still add lotto factor, with a negative drift being an even bigger advantage.

This brings me back to my old suggestion of allowing teams to delay their own spawn, thus forcing the enemy to re-aquire the spawn time. http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... php?t=3664

Or just build a spawn timer into etpro, and be done with it. I would suggest, instead of displaying the enemies spawn clock, you should still be forced to aquire the enemy spawn time. A simple way to do this would be to add a script feature that allows periodic vstr (or just say_team), similar to the way banners work on the server. An example script could be distributed, but players would still be required to see the enemy spawn and use the correct bind.

Note that this *isn't* about spawn killing/camping. The point is that spawn timing should be equally avialable to all, without undue complication, or it should be prevented by gameplay logic.

[Threshold]

Or just build a spawn timer into etpro, and be done with it. I would suggest, instead of displaying the enemies spawn clock, you should still be forced to aquire the enemy spawn time. A simple way to do this would be to add a script feature that allows periodic vstr (or just say_team), similar to the way banners work on the server. An example script could be distributed, but players would still be required to see the enemy spawn and use the correct bind.

I agree. Don't make it as easy as displaying it make them aquire the time and have to enter it in.

There is still room for putting in the time two soon or late but jsut having it show right below your own spawn time is just stupid.

Even with Heron spawn timer where it automaticly counts down there is a disadvantge to it. When you get the time you have to figure it out in you head when the next time is then hit the Spawn button to get it right. That causes people to actually take the risk to get it and even wait another 20/30 till next spawn...

[bani]

allowing individual players to bump their spawntime forward would work. then it cant be exploited on pubs by asshats to fuck up their team.

teams would just bump their spawntime forward all at once.

it would also allow for teams to create staggered spawns, if they like. this would make spawncamping very hard / impossible.

staggered spawns unfair i hear you say? how so? they would spawn more often, but there would be far fewer of them spawning at once. it's a tradeoff.

it could also open the door to new tactics. which isnt a bad thing

[Grizbo]

This all sounds a bit like fixing something that ain't broke to me. Giving the enemy spawn time from the start and throughout the game totally defeats the purpose of it being randomised in the first place. As Steven! has said, its not *that* hard to sneak a man in to watch for the spawn and announce it for the team (although maybe I'm thick but playing, talking on TS AND counting to 30 accurately is beyond me), but its not too hard to remember 10/40 or whatever combination it seems to be.

I really really don't like the idea of playing with spawn times, allowing them to be moved about and staggered etc, as far as I can see the current system really isn't a problem and these "fixes" just aren't needed.

Finding the spawn time isn't difficult, but it should require *some* work and skill on the teams part, not just be handed to them on a silver platter.

Also, for staggered spawns I'd dispute that making spawn camping harder/impossible. If 2 guys are spawning and then 1 and then 3 or whatever, and there are 6 waiting outside, I fail to see where that helps the spawn camped victims. It simply gives them even less people to try to break out with. Ok, it makes panzer/FFE/mortar harder to get all 6 with, but it doesn't stop 6 guys with smg's wiping you out. When you're in that position, not a lot will get you out of it, its true, but 6 guns spawning together have a better chance of it than dribs and draps spawning at random, in my opinion.

/me vote leave things alone

[bani]

Grizbo, either spawntimers are acceptable or they are not.

if spawntimers are acceptable, then etpro shall have an integrated one so everyone is on an even field (vs those who can use heron/external spawnimers and those who dont - eg heron doesnt work on linux).

if spawntimers are not acceptable, then players will be allowed to change their spawntimes. staggered spawns are purely the decision of players. if they dont want them, then they dont have to have them. it's their choice -- not yours. if you dont like the idea then fine, dont use it. but dont deprive other players of that choice.

so, you decide: are spawntimers ok or not?

[Grizbo]

If thats the choice, I'd choose integrated spawn timer over the other option, but personally I *don't* agree with automated spawntimers, if a team make the effort and find out then thats a different thing to just having it handed to them which invalidates there being any random factor to them in the first place.

I can see what you're saying, and I recognise there's no way anyone can viably prevent external spawntimers from being used by teams, so I'll conceed that levelling the playing field as you put it is probably a way to approach fixing that. But in an ideal world, I'd ban the lot of them and make people do it the hard way and WORK for their advantages .

[Bedrock]

It's late at night.. and I didn't even take the time to read everything else.. so call me out on whatever you want.

If you don't like spawntimers.. then why not disable them?

heron.NET versus punkbuster

If heron is running it sets the cl_heron var to 1 and the cl_heronversion to what version is currently running.
Because of these settings, you can configure your punkbuster to disallow the use of heron.

You can do this by adding this to the cvar check of the server config:
pb_sv_cvar cl_heron in 0



Why?
Some people are against spawntimers, so I guess some competition rules might put it in the rules not to use heron. Don't ask for my point of view in this discussion... I'm already quite bored with the comments on this subject.

To prevent people from being accused of running heron, I suggest clients putting "seta cl_heron 0" in their autoexec.cfg. IF heron is running he'll change it to 1, if not it will remain 0. I just suggest this because heron never puts it back to 0, so if heron runs once, it has value 1 until it gets changed. You know the drill...yeah. I'm bored writing now.

I luv short docs, could be shorter tho'

There you have it..

3:42 am here, gonna goto bed. flame ;p

[Leviathan]

Or just build a spawn timer into etpro, and be done with it. I would suggest, instead of displaying the enemies spawn clock, you should still be forced to aquire the enemy spawn time. A simple way to do this would be to add a script feature that allows periodic vstr (or just say_team), similar to the way banners work on the server. An example script could be distributed, but players would still be required to see the enemy spawn and use the correct bind.

Note that this *isn't* about spawn killing/camping. The point is that spawn timing should be equally avialable to all, without undue complication, or it should be prevented by gameplay logic.

Thats nearly exactly what i had in mind, even when i dislike the ides of a periodic say_team. Guess, i am missunderstood in a point here. No time i want bani to code the enemy spawn timer visible towards my own tema. BUT another clock, set to the map-depending correct amount of sec, with can be "fired" by my own team by just pressing a button is a fine idea, i think.

The idea with randomised spawn times is good also, but i think, the defending team will benefit more from this, and ET needs some offense support.

Staggered spawns... hmm... sunds interesting, also i dont see any benefit of the attacking team.

[pack]

Grizbo, either spawntimers are acceptable or they are not.

if spawntimers are acceptable, then etpro shall have an integrated one so everyone is on an even field (vs those who can use heron/external spawnimers and those who dont - eg heron doesnt work on linux).

if spawntimers are not acceptable, then players will be allowed to change their spawntimes. staggered spawns are purely the decision of players. if they dont want them, then they dont have to have them. it's their choice -- not yours. if you dont like the idea then fine, dont use it. but dont deprive other players of that choice.

so, you decide: are spawntimers ok or not?

I agree (w the integrated one). It was someone from my clan who programmed Heron (ev0l Tziek). Apparently some clans use it, but we are too lame to use it ourself. Reason why Tziek released it it's because it's too easy to program.

Linux version: Eh. Tziek also programmed Yawn (www.yawn.be) and a Linux version of that was made afterwards by Eclipse. So I believe basically you just have to wait untill someone wants to program a Linux spawntimer.

-
Basically in ET you don't really need spawntimers because spawns are too easy (every 30s, so you can look on the clock).

Randomized spawntimes would be a very bad thing, because a lot of coordinated attacks are based on the enemies spawntime. For example Oasis. If axis spawn is witnessed on 14:32. That means they spawn on :32 and :02. Which means you don't want to attack passing their spawn at let's say 9:04.

Integrated spawntimers, I think that would be a good idea. Would probably also cause a lot of whine, but who cares for whiners anyway ?


NB: heron can be forbidden by punkbuster... (cl_heron out 1)

[bani]

Staggered spawns... hmm... sunds interesting, also i dont see any benefit of the attacking team.

it means offense can have some players spawning in every 15sec instead of full 30sec, so if one of their pushes is killed off but enemy is nearly dead (1, 2 enemy still alive, quite typical) they can get another small push in, maybe finish off the enemy, and get the objective before defense can spawn completely. then while they are at the objective defending it, the rest of their team spawns and comes up the rear to flank the defense.

it gives attacking team more options than they would otherwise have had.

maybe if its available to attacking team only?

[LaggyNewbie]

I like it the way it is now. The playing field isnt level, thats what makes it a game, because my parents spent a lot of money on a nice computer that lets me shoot with ease, much better then some one with a crappy computer doesnt mean we should put a 43fps limit. Integrating it into the interface is like doing away with the mystery, not fun.

Messing with spawn times im also against, like the move ahead idea. The whole stratedgy to this game has been plant, kill 1 spawn group, and you won it, congrats. Now you have to worry about them comming in waves, bahh, thats not et, thats a death match. On a pub, how fun would it be to go through oasis axis 2nd spawn when they spawn at all different times, there is no safe zone. Instead of having 20secs of safe passage, you cut that in half maybe? not cool.

Instead of 4/30 seconds a guy can be immune in a axis spawn, that doubles if they can alter their spawn time by 5 seconds. 8/30 seconds.

[DeadBull]

Creating random spawns is going to be in the defenders advantage.

There are many maps where spawn timing is used to slip through the enemy's spawn rather then raping it.
In Maps like Oasis, Goldrush and Supply Depot, going through the spawn even is the easiest way to get to your objective.


If you want to do something about spawnraping, you will have to change spawn locations/exits.