Spawn timer support

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Rain
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Post by Rain »

KingJackaL wrote:I dunno whose pubs you're refering to, but in my experience it ISN'T a problem on any of my pubs. Only on psuedo pubs where half the players are clanners ;). The long-campaign servers, the no-XP-reset servers (OK, so they're not etpro, but that aside) etc DON'T have problems with spawn timers, because nobody uses them. No, seriously - NOBODY uses them!
Anyone who'd care probably has enough brains to count in their head. :?

I only ever care about the spawn times on pubs when I'm mortaring, which isn't very often. When I do care, it's so ridiculously trivial to keep track that a spawn timer would be akin to rabbit hunting with nuclear weaponry.
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Herve
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Post by Herve »

Just leave it the way it is. No included spawn timers, no staggered spawns.
Smokey
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Post by Smokey »

I wouldn't say it was of the utmost importance, as has already been said, clans wishing to use spawntimers already do so (albeit heron, ET scripting, egg-timer, bloke on comms rather than an integrated feature) so it seems like a natural progression. I do not see how it would hurt the game in any way so long as whatever method used was aesthetically pleasing and required someone to actually make the effort to spot the time before it became functional.

I'm not sure why all the pub admins / players are getting so hot under the collar as if this is implemented I'd be amazed if it didn't have a serversider cvar to prevent it from being used (as per pretty much every other change made by the etpro team).*

In summary, put me down as a yes - although I would hardly consider it a vital feature for the next release.

Smokey.

*Although ultimately, if people want to time spawns on a pub server, they will - so it's pretty much a moot point.
squadjot
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Post by squadjot »

it aint broken...dont fix it..

I think there are PLENTY of ideas on this forum that deserves a chance instead.. som of them dont even get an answer.. possible / possible, but.. / not possible


this would be some of my contributions:

respawn_autoexec.cfg
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... highlight=

Download resume (pk3/tmp)
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... highlight=

automatic vid_restart between mapchanges
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... highlight=

Manual triggered chat-icons
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... highlight=

suggestion for vocal announcements
http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... highlight=
Kith
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Post by Kith »

99 % of the shit over here is from pub idiots who have no clue how the competitive game should be played.

This is from the same people that wanted extended time if dyno was planted after 30 seconds... That demanded /kill count as a death. (Wow look how that change stopped people from doing it) That wanted xp given if you damage a guy but he /kills on you, or if someone jacks your kill.... Idiots posting "Fix accuracy statistics!!! You can't possibly get more than 100 % w/ a panzer!!!" Oh here's a good one, disable /kill entirely, that's a brilliant move for competition.

If you have any brain, and have been in the competitive rtcw/et world for the time that I have you'll agree with me that while we have a cool mod in ET Pro it comes with a price of a world of noobs that want a million changes brought to it.

Let em implement whatever the hell they want, hopefully the leagues will be smart enough to keep the config settings the same and not bring any dumb as all hell changes into the game that moronic pub allstars have demanded.

I for one think that if you're a) too dumb to count to 30 or b) too dumb to get a script for spawntimes that you have to do or c) too stupid to go to google and get heron yourself, than you are too dumb to be playing in competition and should not bother whatsoever.


I vote a VERY VERY VERY STRONG NO!!!!!
Lez
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Post by Lez »

DG wrote:I thought there was already a random factor for the initial respawn time, it got added in rtcw OSP (where everybody saw it as a good thing).
Yes , the initial spawn time randomized since rtcw osp, and this implemented in et too.
kekkyoku
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Post by kekkyoku »

I vote no also, and I present my own list of wanted changes that will be more welcomed than this:

- Ammo display on mouseover

So field ops can see who has ammo and who doesnt etc (from rtcw)

- Seperation of b_popuptime from icons

I dont know if theres a way to do this or not I havent looked into it much.. but I use b_popuptime 0 for the kill messages on the top/bottom of screen. When I use 0 it gets rid of the icons above heads for ammo and health. If theres a way to delatch these please let me know.

- Let field ops pick both mp40 and thompson

More of a personal want change.. I <3 the mp40.

- A better prone nerf

I like b_pronedelay but I think there should be a better way to do it.. like delaying the gun fire or something.

- Add in the mauser

Needs no explanation.
SickBoy
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Post by SickBoy »

bani wrote:SickBoy - is spawn timing ok or not?

a simple yes or no will do.

how is it bad for pubs when players can already do it?
The simple answer is yes. But how would you implement it? A counter next to the clock or a script like heron?

It's bad for pubs because no matter how you turn it, more people will use it to spawnrape. I don't launch heron or scripts when playing on pubs, and I guess nearly nobody does. A build in counter is a different thing, I would probably end up using it because it's so easy. Other will do as well. Add to that people with no knowledge about spawntimers or those that don't go to the trouble now to get one, but will use one if it just means changing a cvar and pressing a key to enable it.

I see this as a big red popup window asking you to bind a key to /kill. Everybody already can, but there's no point in encouraging it.
ownage
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Post by ownage »

I Vote against this proposal, but i do agree with everything kekk just posted. On top of what he just posed I would also like to see:

- Simple Items


thanks.
DeadBull
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Post by DeadBull »

something i found a couple days ago
http://users.skynet.be/fa102385/junk/etpro.jpg

look @ the spawntimer 8)
just a matter of time before someone will write a spawntimer that will display an enemy spawn time in the same way
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Rain
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Post by Rain »

kekkyoku wrote:- Seperation of b_popuptime from icons

I dont know if theres a way to do this or not I havent looked into it much.. but I use b_popuptime 0 for the kill messages on the top/bottom of screen. When I use 0 it gets rid of the icons above heads for ammo and health. If theres a way to delatch these please let me know.
These shouldn't be related at all, right now. cg_voiceSpriteTime controls how long those icons stay (in ms.)
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Detente
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Post by Detente »

I agree with others who argue that no spawntime(r) change is needed.

My base assumption: I think that spawntimers aren't really necessary. I don't know many people who use them. As Thanatoaster mentioned, most competitive teams simply call out spawntimes once on vent/ts and players remember that interval for the rest of the half round. I don't use a software spawntimer, neither does my clan. Instead, we just employ third grade math in our heads. (Which is good, because some of my clanmates math education ends with arithmetic) :)

Regarding Proposal 1 - Including a spawntimer in etpro:
I don't really care too much about including a spawntimer in etpro, but I think it would largely be a waste of time for Bani. Seriously, anyone who really wants a spawntimer can find the necessary script on their own. There isn't much of a point in including it in a competition mod.

IF a spawntimer is ever included in etpro, it is imperative that said timer function exactly like third party timers that people use. That is, the timer MUST require one to actually observe the enemy's spawntimer. I don't know if I'm on the right track here, but I think that some people are arguing an etpro spawntimer that simply gives one the enemy's spawntime. That would be a tragic decision. In other words, if a spawntimer is included in etpro (which I don't think is worth Bani's time) it must have the full capacity for human error that currently available spawntimers have.

Regarding Proposal 2 - Random/nonstatic spawntimes:
Under no circumstances is this change needed, or should it be used in competitive play. It negatively affects the ability of teams to make viable strategies. My ramblings in this section apply to both proposed ideas: randomizing spawntimes and allowing players to offset their spawntimes.

For attacking teams, randomized spawntimes will impair strategies because most maps in ET require attackers to somehow pass or interact with defending teams spawnpoints. If spawntimes are randomized, attackers could kill an entire defending team only to have them spawn unexpectedly afterwords. At least having a predictable spawntime allows teams to make crucial decisions about whether to press forward or hold back at certain points in a match. This has been argued at length previously, so I'll not go into any more depth.

For defending teams, randomized spawntimes would add too much of an unpredictable variable for defenses. For example, lets say that on Oasis (always a map used in the final rounds of playoffs) the allies have blown the north gun already, and plant the south a few seconds after the last axis engineer has been killed/gibbed, a few seconds after axis respawns. The remaininig axis team kills the allied attack, and secures the south gun. However, the random time for the next axis spawn is 33 seconds. Therefore, even though the axis have shut down the current axis attack and have secured the south gun, it is mathmatically impossible for an axis engineer to defuse. Under these circumstances, a plant that could otherwise be defused will blow. I didn't use precise times, in seconds, in this example, but it shouldn't be difficult to understand how random spawntimes would have strong potential to make a lottery out of a round of ET.

The preceeding example cognates well to other maps (second tank barrier on Goldrush, main objectives on Battery and Fueldump, etc.) Use your imagination. Granted the Oasis example only applies to randomized spawntimes.

As a general note about allowing players to offset their spawn times, my response is simple. Serious clans wouldn't use this feature. Instead of averting a spawncamp, setting one's own spawntime back would only allow the spawncamping team to become more entrenched around a spawnpoint.
Why would someone elect to allow an opposing team to insure an even greater advantage by allowing them to choose ideal positions from which to launch a spawncamp? Even if delaying your own spawntime (and having the rest of your team do the same) would allow you to avoid an arty or airstrike attack, it would also allow the opposing team to get a panzer, some medics, or other players in ideal positions to launch a more effective spawncamp.

Conclusion:
None of the proposed changes should be adopted regarding spawntimes. I'm rather neutral about the benign addition of a simple spawntimer that would allow for the same types of human error as the spawntimers currently in use. Would I use such a timer? No. Would most competitive teams use it? Probably not. Is it worth Bani's valuable time? Absolutely not.

I'm sorry this reply was rather verbose, but I wanted to be thorough. (I'm a grad student, if you can't tell by my [sarcasm] captivating [/sarcasm] prose. For further reference, check out the comments at et-center, which represent diverse views from the competitive community. (if you can handle the flames) :)

http://www.et-center.com/?page=news&id=488#comments
Detente
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Post by Detente »

Damn that was long. Sorry. I have lots of freetime today.
DeadBull wrote:something i found a couple days ago
http://users.skynet.be/fa102385/junk/etpro.jpg

look @ the spawntimer 8)
just a matter of time before someone will write a spawntimer that will display an enemy spawn time in the same way
DeadBull: The thing that concerns you most about that screenshot is the spawntimer? The spawntimer is the only thing in that ss that I don't care about. I'd be more concerned with the obvious and gratutious hacks depicted there. :)
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bani
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Post by bani »

Detente wrote:Regarding Proposal 1 - Including a spawntimer in etpro:
I don't really care too much about including a spawntimer in etpro, but I think it would largely be a waste of time for Bani.
thats quite ok, i'm not spending even 1 second on coding it. the other coders are writing it instead (i've already delegated the task to someone). so it's not a waste of time for me since i'm not spending any time coding it.
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bani
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Post by bani »

heh. someone already coded the etpro spawntimer while i was sleeping 8) so i didn't have to spend any "valuable" time on it. 8) 8)

its quite silly if any league tries to ban spawntimers -- they cant prevent anyone from using one.

re: pub spawncamping.

um, tough shit? deal with it? it happens, spawntimer or not. it's really a fault of retarded long campaigns and everyone having 900+ XP, when it turns into a total spamfest. i can think of ways to fix this, but "banning" spawntimers isnt one of them. it wont fix the real issue which is 8 fops calling arty on every one of your spawn exits continuously. spawn timing has nothing to do with this at all. if you think otherwise, you're deluding yourself. :P

a builtin spawntimer isnt going to make pubs suck any more than they already do.

either deal with it, change your spawnpoint, or /disconnect. :roll:
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