LEAVE ET AS IS PLEASE

Herf · Post by **Herf** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 9:33 pm

First off, bani has done a hell of a lot for ET, and I appreciate it greatly. But please consider this point of view on spawncamping and ET in general.

"the real solutions to this problem (spawncamping/spawntimers) are:
1) more spawnpoints
2) randomized spawntimes" -Bani

First, in terms of spawncamping. There is no problem of spawncamping, anymore than there is a problem of your enemy shooting his gun at you in ET.

ET is all about tactics, and spawn camping is a big part of ET tactics. People play ET because they like the tactics of it to a very large extent. ET is NOT a game soley of aim, aiming is perhaps 50 percent of ET, the rest is tactics, and tactics is why I play ET.

I am a spawncamper, and let me tell you, spawncamping has become harder and harder to do as teams have become more sophisticated at avoiding spawnkills, because they THINK tactically. One can evade most spawncamps usually.

Dont kill the game of ET by making it something its NOT. People play it because they like it as is, make too many "improvements" for all the people who really dont like ET, and likely really dont like any game- net code suks, hit boxes suk, lagg suks, the goo gun(fav ut2k3 complaint) suks, blah blah blah- and ET will simply die.

KEEP ET as is. Also:

"the stickycharge, levels and weapon restrictions change the game far more than spawntimes ever would"

For a player such as me, and yeah I can aim real well, that is entirely false. I base a whole lot of "spam" kills by being able to predict where people are gonna be in "spacetime" even far far away from spawn on certain maps, if certain conditions hold. Its a very complex thing to do, and hard to time on the fly, and very very interesting for me. Its a big part of why I enjoy the game, the probability element of it, the controlled predictable chaos of it. I think of it in terms of Chaos theory as described in the book by James Gleick. Its really quite fascinating aspect.

ET as an aiming only game? No thanks, too simplistic, UT2K4 much better, as are tons of other games.

ET is tactics tactics tactics, and it like all games has a limited life. New people arent gonna be flocking to ET, making huge changes arent gonna enhance the game, people arent gonna go, ah they killed spawncamping, killled proning, now I am gonna go play ET!!!!! They are gonna hurt it by making more people disinterested in it like myself who are now big players of the game for the simple reason WE LIKE IT AS IS. I mean thats just self evident.

Are the doom3 players gonna migrate to ET cause of your changes? No. Or are dedicated ET players gonna say screw this and goto doom3 when facets of the game are destroyed that have always been there and are a huge aspect of why we play in the first place? YES.

Are the the complainers who dont like fundamental aspects of ET, who for some weird reason have chosen ET as thier game, gonna now jump in and play ET? No. They are just unhappy period, if not proning, its spawncamping, or something else, and you arent gonna change it so all the complainers are happy and viola! they suddenly start to play. Not gonna happen.

I love ET, its a great great game. I would like to continue being able to play it.

Thanks,

H3rf

PS I dont use a spawntimer, and dont care if peeps do.

Post by **bani** » Fri Aug 06, 2004 10:28 pm

if the primary reason players play ET is to spawncamp, and if all ET tactics revolve primarily around spawncamping, if ET tactics are so shallow as to always boil down to spawncamping, then I think its time I moved on to another game. your arguments are strongly persuading me in that direction.

ReyalP · Post by **ReyalP** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:28 am

bani wrote:if the primary reason players play ET is to spawncamp, and if all ET tactics revolve primarily around spawncamping, if ET tactics are so shallow as to always boil down to spawncamping, then I think its time I moved on to another game. your arguments are strongly persuading me in that direction.

Tactics revolve around spawn times, not spawn camping.

I don't know why people persist in confusing the two, they are only vaguely related. You can spawn camp without paying attention to the enemy spawn time (sit and lean with a PF, or just get a big enough crossfire on the exits) and spawn times are useful for many other things. It's been a while since I watched a demo of a 'l33t' ET match, but the last time I did, it certainly didn't revolve around spawn camping. Sure, on some maps, a good spawn rape may be what you need to pull off the plant or doc run, but it certainly isn't the only thing going on. Furthermore, to get a proper spawn rape, you have to kill the other team at some non-spawn location.

Any wave respawn game is going to revolve around spawn times, and any one with fixed respawn areas is going reward killing them fresh out of spawn.

Experimenting with other respawn methods might be interesting, but it would be large change in the character of the game. Claiming that no other option could possibly be better (as many posts have), without actually playtesting is obviously stupid, but plenty of players are happy with the current method.

deej · Post by **deej** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:07 am

reyal_IP is right. I try to figure out when the enemy spawns not to stand there with a panzer but to know when NOT to run through their spawn. Communicating this to your teammates helps a lot in getting the objectives done, even on a pub

red · Post by **red** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:39 am

Im against altering the spawntimes too. Its pretty much the nature of the game to time your attacks based on your enemys spawntimes, not always spawnkilling, but evading certain things and knowing where some of your enemies are atleast.

Modifying these settings would make a huge change in the tactics used nowadays, in my opinion it should not be tampered with. Don't get me wrong bani, i greatly appreciate what you have done with ET, but whining about spawnkilling is maybe the lamest thing to do.

Examples: in GR if you always just run out, and the allies know what to do, its probable that you'll get killed. Using other routes or just waiting few secs after spawn helps alot. In oasis you actually can spawn in 2 different rooms with axis and its really easy to evaid spawnkilling - IF you are aware.

In pretty much all the other official maps, there are multiple spawnpoints and i've never even thought that its a problem. The only place i've seen whining about spawnkilling before, is public servers with newbie players. Are you really a part of them?

"the real solutions to this problem (spawncamping/spawntimers)"
I still havent seen any arguments on your behalf about what the problem really is? As far as i see there is no problem. You say it is a problem, give us some grounds to support your sayings.

--
#Jeenge - Red

Bedrock · Post by **Bedrock** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:38 am

For once I do agree with Herf.. it needs to be left as is.. or you need to find a better way to solve this "problem." Which it is certainly not. :[

edit:
Referring to having the ability to change your own spawntime to avoid spawncamps, pretty silly. in-game spawntimer? ok ..but I can't see how you'd do it.. someone explain if they would. This spawntimer, would it automatically start timing the enemies spawn as soon as you start out? Or would you have to see the enemy spawn for it to work?

double edit: nvm http://bani.anime.net/banimod/forums/vi ... 2001#42001 found it

squadjot · Post by **squadjot** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:54 am

to the spawncamp vs. spawnTIMING ..yes thats the issue..playing with a random factor of 5 seconds..u can STILL play after spawntiming..but will have harder to spawnCAMP with art...

the fine art* cough cough,..of spawncamping with art(or mortar for that sake)... is knowing EXACTLY (more or less) when your enemy spawn..

ps..i think its very important to actaully read and understnad the proposal of how the "randomized-spawn" should work... i think the word "randomized" scare people off

>>steven! · Post by **>>steven!** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:37 am

if u going to randomise spawn times, gone is the skill factor of timing your attacks. (means u could endup killing all the other team on what u think is a full spawn/ or near to, only to then find out all 6 of them have altered their spawn so u have ot kill them all over again.

.: the only thing that will come out of randomising spawn times, is alot of scrappy games that endup in full holds. the attacking team will have a very hard job to complete the objectives as they dont know when the enemy will spawn on them.

now whether bani would want to include this feature for public play, which can be turned off in comp mode thats fine, i dont mind it in public play as u have to accomodate for nubs starting out in the game, it aint pretty for them to die all the time in spawn/ on a full spawn. but i dont think really this is a good feature for clan matches.

tbh the only way to get round this issue is to introduce more spawn points, like setspawnpt 4 on oasis means u probs wont get spawncamped.

Spark2 · Post by **Spark2** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:54 am

These endless discussions are certainly tiresome for many people and I more and more fail to understand what's the point of it... Is there any reason to hurt the community even more? The reality is, ETPro has become the de facto standard, nobody ever felt the need to create a competitor, which would only split the community apart. And now it's much too late to start over. So it all depends on ETPro and the team, as long as it's proprietary...
It could be so easy if you'd simply fork ETPro, release the source (of the current version at least) or make a simple b_promode which would change the game to exactly what you would like, while on 0 it would play exactly as the game was supposed to be played (certain admin options could remain). Then the community could decide which they like better (we might even have two happy communities) and we'd have no reason anymore to fight about every little detail. I can't stand it much longer and I honestly can't believe that it's a good idea to drive away those people who actually like the game, to accommodate those who don't like it, but still play it for some funky reason.

Herf · Post by **Herf** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:50 pm

bani wrote:if the primary reason players play ET is to spawncamp, and if all ET tactics revolve primarily around spawncamping, if ET tactics are so shallow as to always boil down to spawncamping, then I think its time I moved on to another game. your arguments are strongly persuading me in that direction.

Well, as above, its not only spawn camping per se, but timing in general thats a HUGE aspect of the game.

Also, bani, I never posited or meant to posit, that the primary reason players play ET is to spawncamp. It is a big reason I play ET, like others like to get the big panzer kill, or to improve thier riflenade skill, or to multikill with mortar aka stiegl. i like to try and get the big spawn kill with AS art. Its just ONE aspect of the game, but a big one, its important tactically to always THINK, and not rush out and get spawn killed, if the enemy on goldrush owns the bridge area, and your on axis........ You are quit simply STUPID to rush out right at spawn. Its just tactics, and it adds a big mental part to the game that I enjoy. Also, dont misinterpret my use of stupid, I use it because thats what i call myself when i get spawn killed, when i run over a mine at the base in an obvious location, etc etc. So its not a personal attack, just a statement of fact.

Avoiding spawnkills is a big part of competitive ET, as are obtaining them, its a huge mental issue, you gotta THINK. Almost all spawnkills are avoidable if you do the right thing quickly, or anticipate them coming.

There are probably areas of the game you like and perhaps I dislike, that doesnt mean I should try and kill the ones you like. ET is played again, because it is ET, not a game with random spawntimes, I have bought Halo, COD, ut2k4 etc. and they are all unused......... This is because I like the equation:

ET=ET

Please dont change it. Thanks.

PS Bani this is NOT to say I dont appreciate all you have done to make the game better, I think I may have thanked u in more posts than most bani, I do appreciate your work. Its just that making fundamental changes in my opinion is bad, or even giving the option to make fundamental changes is bad, cause people are prone to misuse them- BUT again, I cant hold u responsible per se for that, and if you say I am gonna make a cvar available for people to use, I dont really have a leg to stand on except that I wish you wouldnt in terms of spawncamping, that imho its gonna be bad for the game to make it available, things just arent as democractic as they should be. And the availability of making fundamental changes to the game could concievably really weaken the game, cause people in power are prone to arbitrarily change whatever they want to, community be damned, and post some laughable flowery sounding speech to justify their autocratic decisions.

gotenks · Post by **gotenks** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:39 pm

my 2cents... what you didn't ask for them... well you get them anyway...

RTCW has kept my interest for several years, ET, caught my interest and took me away from rtcw, but now i'm back to rtcw, why? i got bored with ET... i've seend waves of people come and go from ET... i believe a change will help, these are optional changes for ET, and if you don't want the community to turn into immature people only spawncamping and aimbotting, changes must be made

Herf · Post by **Herf** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:27 pm

gotenks wrote:my 2cents... what you didn't ask for them... well you get them anyway...
RTCW has kept my interest for several years, ET, caught my interest and took me away from rtcw, but now i'm back to rtcw, why? i got bored with ET... i've seend waves of people come and go from ET... i believe a change will help, these are optional changes for ET, and if you don't want the community to turn into immature people only spawncamping and aimbotting, changes must be made

I really dont know what your talking about in terms of aimbotting.
And what per se is immature about spawncamping, its just par for the course in competition since the beginning of ET, as well as for wolf as I can recall.......

Its great you went back to wolf, kudos! I think thats what a lot of people need to do. Wolf is a great game, I liked it once about 1.5 to 2 years ago, played it a lot. I chose to uninstall it. I never want to play it again. But its still there, and anyone can play it at anytime! So there is no need to make ET more like wolf, cause wolf is already there.

Also, why the heck do you even care about ET, you dont like it, you like wolf, just play wolf, and leave ET to the people who LIKE it, aka me.

Again, I fail to see how spawncamping makes me immature? As well as what in the world aimbotting has to do with the discussion?

eclipse+ · Post by **eclipse+** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:08 pm

Don't change anything.

This is almost as dumb as the disable /kill thread.

Leave spawntimes as they are, leave spawnpoints as they are...just don't change anything. I don't know why this stupid topic is even being brought up.

The pubbers want changes...don't change it in etpro, the competition mod. That is what BayonET is for right? Put the dumb changes in that mod.

rgr, herf likes men \o/

gotenks · Post by **gotenks** » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:14 pm

i'm not saying turn it into another rtcw, what i'm saying is give it a breath of fresh life...
i still am against things that won't improve gameplay but i think some things need to be tweaked (personally i'm for the in game spawn timer, but not against randomized spawn times)

>>steven! · Post by **>>steven!** » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:11 am

but gotenks u will still have problems with the "aimbotters" ohh noooo !!!

LOL

30mins a day 1v1 practice on a nice small map will sort u out chappy

and i think u will find rtcw has a bigger problem at the moment with hacks and bots