Basic point and I'm I am chiming in late is that team's use them and 90% can not be enforced so why not let everyone have one
spawntimers: the thread that will not die.
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okay, lets clarify this, nobody has a problem with people USING spawn timers okay here is the point to state it AGAIN, and please read this time people.
Where as it would apear non euro leagues have done an inteligent thing and not include spawn timers in there rules most Euro leagues/ladders do have spawn timers in there rules and prohibit there use.
These are down as rules, and wether or not you agree with them doesnt change this simple fact, to use a spawn timer in this league you are breaking the rule, using the excuse it isnt detectable, isnt an excuse as there is wallhacks out there that also are not detectable, should we use them cause its okay cause we cant detect them, its a breach of rules EXACTLY the same as any other breach, you would soon be up in arms if they had done a 3man stack and planted, something also done on a "faith system" ie you ask them nicely not to, but there is nothing to STOP some1 doing a 3man stack, or about the million and 1 other things we ask people nicely to do.
The fact that ET-Pro then integrates a spawn timer, that yes will even the playing field to a certain extent, is now technically banned by Clanbase being the main ones rules IS the problem, so either Clanbase and other leagues with spawn timers in need to rewrite there rules, or the spawn timer needs removing from ET-Pro, or there needs to be a server side CVAR to turn it off.
Thats it, no argument over wether its fair or anything else, tbh i do not care one way or the other.
What shocks me about this thread is the volume of people who think its fine to break the rules if the admins cant/wont find out.
Where as it would apear non euro leagues have done an inteligent thing and not include spawn timers in there rules most Euro leagues/ladders do have spawn timers in there rules and prohibit there use.
These are down as rules, and wether or not you agree with them doesnt change this simple fact, to use a spawn timer in this league you are breaking the rule, using the excuse it isnt detectable, isnt an excuse as there is wallhacks out there that also are not detectable, should we use them cause its okay cause we cant detect them, its a breach of rules EXACTLY the same as any other breach, you would soon be up in arms if they had done a 3man stack and planted, something also done on a "faith system" ie you ask them nicely not to, but there is nothing to STOP some1 doing a 3man stack, or about the million and 1 other things we ask people nicely to do.
The fact that ET-Pro then integrates a spawn timer, that yes will even the playing field to a certain extent, is now technically banned by Clanbase being the main ones rules IS the problem, so either Clanbase and other leagues with spawn timers in need to rewrite there rules, or the spawn timer needs removing from ET-Pro, or there needs to be a server side CVAR to turn it off.
Thats it, no argument over wether its fair or anything else, tbh i do not care one way or the other.
What shocks me about this thread is the volume of people who think its fine to break the rules if the admins cant/wont find out.
interesting presumption, but given as how the majority of them (especially CB) refuse to answer either there IRC channel, or the forum, the only signs of life you get from them would seem to be on here, here seems to be the place to ask the question.
Are spawn timers allowed, or is the Latest ET-Pro when released banned from competition.
Are spawn timers allowed, or is the Latest ET-Pro when released banned from competition.
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RoadKillPuppy
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First of all, if clanbase makes nonsensical rules (and it wouldn't be the first time), it is up to them to enforce them.daemord wrote: The fact that ET-Pro then integrates a spawn timer, that yes will even the playing field to a certain extent, is now technically banned by Clanbase being the main ones rules IS the problem, so either Clanbase and other leagues with spawn timers in need to rewrite there rules, or the spawn timer needs removing from ET-Pro, or there needs to be a server side CVAR to turn it off.
However, from my brief reading of this:
http://www.clanbase.com/ladderrules.php?lid=1095
I don't see that spawntimers are banned. External programs that interact with the game are banned. Thus the etpro spawntimer should be fine, as would be a mechanical device that squawks on ventrillo every 20 or 30 seconds. Given that voicecoms are allowed, it would also seem that program which was merely triggered by a hotkey, but did not interact with the game would also be ok (e.g. you press hotkey when you see spawn, program makes your voicecom beep every N seconds therafter). Heron is banned because it injects messages into the game, not because it times spawns. (note that is just my interpretation from skimming it quickly. Don't blame me if the clanbase admins don't agree, and ban you for teaching your parrot to squawk every 30 seconds after it sees the axis spawn.)
RoadKillPuppy:
Because, as has been explained about 1 billion times, there is no way to stop spawntiming short of changing the way respawns are done. All adding a cvar would do, would be to give the false impression that you could stop spawn timing, and make it slightly less convenient.
send lawyers, guns and money
you could ask for a recording, most voice coms software will record, and you can also see team chat using server logs, admitidly this doesnt stop the parot, but i belive the point is being missed, this tbh is beyond the simplicity of should spawn timers be allowed, its that clans are ignoring the rules because they can get away with it.
Bani is ignoring league rules by allowing banned stuff be used by implementing it into ET-Pro.
Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should, maybee this is just me being idealistic, dunno, seems obvious to me people here dont really give a damn about rules, tbh with the increase of aim bots and wall hacks out there and neither PB or ET-Pro team releasing an update to there cheat protection code to stop them, seems more and more people really dont care about rules anymore.
Bani is ignoring league rules by allowing banned stuff be used by implementing it into ET-Pro.
Just because you can do something doesnt mean you should, maybee this is just me being idealistic, dunno, seems obvious to me people here dont really give a damn about rules, tbh with the increase of aim bots and wall hacks out there and neither PB or ET-Pro team releasing an update to there cheat protection code to stop them, seems more and more people really dont care about rules anymore.
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RoadKillPuppy
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Again: there is no way to stop all hacks either, should you implement one to balance things out?SCDS_reyalP wrote:RoadKillPuppy:
Because, as has been explained about 1 billion times, there is no way to stop spawntiming short of changing the way respawns are done. All adding a cvar would do, would be to give the false impression that you could stop spawn timing, and make it slightly less convenient.
Anyway, I am not going to feed this tread any longer. Just asking for a feature here...
I'll wait and see if it gets included in the next version or not.
ETPro team just released an update.and neither PB or ET-Pro team releasing an update to there cheat protection code to stop them
RKP
daemord:
- point out where in the Clanbase rules spawn timing is banned.
- the etpro team just did update their anticheat code db, and the next version has improved anti cheat code, so not only is your statement offtopic to this thread, it is completely wrong as well
RoadKillPuppy:
There are some differences between spawntimers and cheats.
- impact of spawntimers is small. If you practice looking at the match clock, and counting off 20/30 seconds, that is 99% as good as running a spawn timer. Aimbots/wallhacks, OTOH, have a big impact, and no amount of practice will give you the same ability.
- spawntimers can trivially be completely, 100% undetectable. While a given cheat might be undetected for a time, they mostly will get detected eventually.
- cheats can be spotted by other means, even if PB or etpro AC don't detect them. You can see them in demos, for example. This is not true for spawn timers, since paying attention to the clock can be just as effective.
You might think for my posts here, that I want spawntimers. Actually, I don't. I'd rather everyone was forced to count. But I recognize that is impossible to enforce, and that the impact is small. Thus it is reasonable for etpro to make it avialable to everyone.
- point out where in the Clanbase rules spawn timing is banned.
- the etpro team just did update their anticheat code db, and the next version has improved anti cheat code, so not only is your statement offtopic to this thread, it is completely wrong as well
RoadKillPuppy:
There are some differences between spawntimers and cheats.
- impact of spawntimers is small. If you practice looking at the match clock, and counting off 20/30 seconds, that is 99% as good as running a spawn timer. Aimbots/wallhacks, OTOH, have a big impact, and no amount of practice will give you the same ability.
- spawntimers can trivially be completely, 100% undetectable. While a given cheat might be undetected for a time, they mostly will get detected eventually.
- cheats can be spotted by other means, even if PB or etpro AC don't detect them. You can see them in demos, for example. This is not true for spawn timers, since paying attention to the clock can be just as effective.
You might think for my posts here, that I want spawntimers. Actually, I don't. I'd rather everyone was forced to count. But I recognize that is impossible to enforce, and that the impact is small. Thus it is reasonable for etpro to make it avialable to everyone.
send lawyers, guns and money
well said.SCDS_reyalP wrote:daemord:
- point out where in the Clanbase rules spawn timing is banned.
- the etpro team just did update their anticheat code db, and the next version has improved anti cheat code, so not only is your statement offtopic to this thread, it is completely wrong as well
RoadKillPuppy:
There are some differences between spawntimers and cheats.
- impact of spawntimers is small. If you practice looking at the match clock, and counting off 20/30 seconds, that is 99% as good as running a spawn timer. Aimbots/wallhacks, OTOH, have a big impact, and no amount of practice will give you the same ability.
- spawntimers can trivially be completely, 100% undetectable. While a given cheat might be undetected for a time, they mostly will get detected eventually.
- cheats can be spotted by other means, even if PB or etpro AC don't detect them. You can see them in demos, for example. This is not true for spawn timers, since paying attention to the clock can be just as effective.
You might think for my posts here, that I want spawntimers. Actually, I don't. I'd rather everyone was forced to count. But I recognize that is impossible to enforce, and that the impact is small. Thus it is reasonable for etpro to make it avialable to everyone.
CB bans all external programmes but interact with ET in anyway (i.e. Heron) but don't say anything specific about spawn timers
most good teams will simply call the spawn times on comms and everyone will use their own respawn timer to work spawns from then on .... the only real effect of a spawn timer will have is for maps with 'uneven' spawns (i.e. 35 seconds), but i don't know of any 6v6 comp ET maps that use these
having just checked the CB rules i can confirm it isnt in there, HOWEVER as memory serves i found out about this after finally getting some1's attention in the CB channel (turns out admin abuse is usefull for something) after actually getting someone (the CB admin) to actually sit down and chat and have an interesting discussion about rules and having just found out about heron i questioned about spawn timers, NOT heron but spawn timers in general, and he said they were banned, i will have to see if i can dig out the convo, for those willing to spend hours going through the CB forum archives due to its imence speed, they will also find there was a thread on there about it where admins actually confirmed spawn timers in CB are banned, but typical of CB they never update rules so no1 has a clue what is and isnt banned :/
As for the cheat database, sorry for being off topic, i did not realise that it had been updated, sorry for missing this however, given talk on these forums i assume either a)alot of other people have missed it also or b)it doesnt detect this new multihack floating around.
This is not a dig at bani or his crew but for a cheat protection system to be successful it needs to be automatically updateable, as well as regularly updated (more so than it has been) mainly its a dig at PB, who tbh have been far FAR more lazy than bani have of late, and given they do a detection on confirmation system, and this multihack has been about for a while, they should have pleanty of knowledge and ability to shut the thing down, and they do have a auto update system, anyway this is off topic and i appologise.
And if we start classifying rule breaking by saying there are differences, and there is different "degree's" of rule breaking where do we stop, im sorry but i have always thought you need a black and white line when it comes to rules, if its against rules, then its against rules, it shouldnt make a blind difference if bob or sally does it, shouldnt matter if fred cant see it.
Im thinking about giving up on this argument since it seems like im hitting a brick wall on this, as the only impression as ive said before is "its okay to break the rules, if the admins dont know about it" and to me, that excuse which tbh is all it is, an excuse is not acceptable, we should be discussing an alternative, but its all to easy to fob it off.
Hey i know rather than have bani spend ages coding endless cheat protection why dont we just bundle all the cheats into ET-Pro, itl no doubt be easier for bani to code, and he wont have to faff on with cheat protection, seen as it doesnt matter about breaking rules, so long as admins dont know :/
As for the cheat database, sorry for being off topic, i did not realise that it had been updated, sorry for missing this however, given talk on these forums i assume either a)alot of other people have missed it also or b)it doesnt detect this new multihack floating around.
This is not a dig at bani or his crew but for a cheat protection system to be successful it needs to be automatically updateable, as well as regularly updated (more so than it has been) mainly its a dig at PB, who tbh have been far FAR more lazy than bani have of late, and given they do a detection on confirmation system, and this multihack has been about for a while, they should have pleanty of knowledge and ability to shut the thing down, and they do have a auto update system, anyway this is off topic and i appologise.
And if we start classifying rule breaking by saying there are differences, and there is different "degree's" of rule breaking where do we stop, im sorry but i have always thought you need a black and white line when it comes to rules, if its against rules, then its against rules, it shouldnt make a blind difference if bob or sally does it, shouldnt matter if fred cant see it.
Im thinking about giving up on this argument since it seems like im hitting a brick wall on this, as the only impression as ive said before is "its okay to break the rules, if the admins dont know about it" and to me, that excuse which tbh is all it is, an excuse is not acceptable, we should be discussing an alternative, but its all to easy to fob it off.
Hey i know rather than have bani spend ages coding endless cheat protection why dont we just bundle all the cheats into ET-Pro, itl no doubt be easier for bani to code, and he wont have to faff on with cheat protection, seen as it doesnt matter about breaking rules, so long as admins dont know :/
Don't think anyone's saying that Dae. I think the point is if a rule is unenforceable, it shouldn't be in the rules. Banning hacks, unlike spawn-timers, is enforceable through software. The fact some hacks are undetected doesn't change the fact they could be if Bani / PB had the uptodate info to go on.daemord wrote:Im thinking about giving up on this argument since it seems like im hitting a brick wall on this, as the only impression as ive said before is "its okay to break the rules, if the admins dont know about it" and to me, that excuse which tbh is all it is, an excuse is not acceptable, we should be discussing an alternative, but its all to easy to fob it off.
I can't see anyone in this thread seriously suggesting it's OK to break a rule cos it can be broken. There are plenty of people saying an easily breakable rule shouldn't be a rule however. And furthermore I assume one sunny day long after ET has stopped being played CB will get round to clarifying the situation regards spawn-timers
