How should I relate to the new hitboxes?

[Rain]

We don't have debugging of the same degree for all of the b_realhead stuff, because the current box-drawing debug stuff can only draw axial boxes, and in some b_realhead modes this no longer applies.

To the best of my knowledge (and it's been a bit since I've looked at the code, so I might be off a bit here), there are a couple of b_realHead modes:

• Hitboxes are left more or less as-is, with only the positioning of the head hitbox changing (placed according to model and animation data), or
• Hit testing done against several cylinders, placed by the bones in the model's skeleton. This is a huge improvement in many respects (you can shoot over someone's shoulder or between their legs and miss, for example), but it makes the area you have to hit much smaller—I don't expect this one will be enabled for matches, since the whine would be incredible when everyone's accuracy halved. I know zinx was reworking this code, and I'm not 100% sure what the current state of it is.

[KingJackaL]

[*]Hit testing done against several cylinders, placed by the bones in the model's skeleton. This is a huge improvement in many respects (you can shoot over someone's shoulder or between their legs and miss, for example), but it makes the area you have to hit much smaller—I don't expect this one will be enabled for matches, since the whine would be incredible when everyone's accuracy halved. I know zinx was reworking this code, and I'm not 100% sure what the current state of it is.[/list]

OK, so it's not Doom3 per-poly hit detection, but that'd be REAL nice .

/me whips zinx

[ReyalP]

reyalP

Maybe you should redo your screenshot's and do side to side Pic's of old and new.

Or not

I can't do that, since my method of displaying the hitboxes requires custom code. Also, doing this for the old style hit detection was simple, because the formula used to calculate hitbox positions on the server was very simple. That makes it easy to predict on the client, and so accurately represent how things would be on the server (pretending that antilag was perfect).

Visually representing what the server did vs. what the client showed is not easy. It really seems like to do this right you would want some kind of demo playback that could represent both, but existing demo playback is quite distorted, and almost certainly does't contain enough information. Maybe you could generate some kind of log on both the client and server and diff them....

The new version of etpro does (or at least one of the test version I played did) have an option to show the head hitbox, but it obviously didn't track players well while moving. In any case, it would require a cheat enabled server, which won't be available to most of us till public beta.

[ouroboro]

Hit testing done against several cylinders, placed by the bones in the model's skeleton. This is a huge improvement in many respects (you can shoot over someone's shoulder or between their legs and miss, for example), but it makes the area you have to hit much smaller—I don't expect this one will be enabled for matches, since the whine would be incredible when everyone's accuracy halved. I know zinx was reworking this code, and I'm not 100% sure what the current state of it is.

that just gave me a massive wood. that's more or less like CS except CS has rectangles: http://www.summerblue.net/games/cs_repo ... ction.html

i don't even like CS, but i always had to admire what Valve did with their hitboxes, especially considering how old the base engine is.

i frankly don't give a sweet shit what ppl cry about, i'm gonna whine equally loud to have this unbelieveable leetness implemented by default, or even hard coded into etpro individual body part boxes simply *IS* leet. full stop. whiners be damned.

[Smoke]

All right, no matter how it works, it does work! When I played well I got about 1:1 (kill:hs), but now it's like 1:2.

[[LNA]Gary]

This is a huge improvement in many respects (you can shoot over someone's shoulder or between their legs and miss, for example)

Wow, sounds great.

[>>steven!]

All right, no matter how it works, it does work! When I played well I got about 1:1 (kill:hs), but now it's like 1:2.

cool ill be getting 3 headshots a kill,

[agrado]

It should be blindingly obvious that longer delays and less smooth movment will always be a disadvantage.

It's not always a disadvantage. For example, if you have high ping and you are shooting a stationary player then you can shoot them several times before they even know they are being shot. They could even die without ever knowing they were being attacked.

[Spark2]

i frankly don't give a sweet shit what ppl cry about, i'm gonna whine equally loud to have this unbelieveable leetness implemented by default, or even hard coded into etpro Smile individual body part boxes simply *IS* leet. full stop. whiners be damned.

Aligned hitboxes sound great in theory, but if you look past the "woot, now I can shoot my teammate over the shoulder", the actual effects on gameplay actually aren't that great:
- Shooting on a distance becomes more lotto
- Shooting in general becomes more lotto, because nobody can always aim pixel perfect and even the slightest spread can cause your bullets to miss. Aiming at the head area becomes less important, because it reduces your chances to hit anything (unlike the current code which will make you score a bodyshot, even if you miss the headbox)
- Accuracy becomes more important, favoring low sensitivities and reducing the value of reaction speed and other gameplay related actions. Effectively making the game more boring (as happened with Urban Terror).

More accurate hit detection models will certainly be the norm very soon and games will be designed around it, but I don't think that exchanging the one huge hitbox with accurately aligned hitboxes in a current game will be an improvement, especially if it's a fast paced action game. Quite the opposite.
Don't get me wrong, I don't say that aligned hitboxes don't work for CS, but CS is a game that is primarily build around aiming and tactical (slow) movement. ET is very different.

If you want to whine until this becomes hard coded, I promise to whine until the strafejump limitation gets removed.

[KingJackaL]

It should be blindingly obvious that longer delays and less smooth movment will always be a disadvantage.

It's not always a disadvantage. For example, if you have high ping and you are shooting a stationary player then you can shoot them several times before they even know they are being shot. They could even die without ever knowing they were being attacked.

Yes and no.

I don't think you understand how antilag works dude .

You could shoot them 3x before they knew they were being shot, yes... but in the same way, and at the same time as they would have already shot you 4x ( without YOU knowing... ) .

[ouroboro]

i frankly don't give a sweet shit what ppl cry about, i'm gonna whine equally loud to have this unbelieveable leetness implemented by default, or even hard coded into etpro Smile individual body part boxes simply *IS* leet. full stop. whiners be damned.

Aligned hitboxes sound great in theory, but if you look past the "woot, now I can shoot my teammate over the shoulder", the actual effects on gameplay actually aren't that great:
- Shooting on a distance becomes more lotto
- Shooting in general becomes more lotto, because nobody can always aim pixel perfect and even the slightest spread can cause your bullets to miss. Aiming at the head area becomes less important, because it reduces your chances to hit anything (unlike the current code which will make you score a bodyshot, even if you miss the headbox)
- Accuracy becomes more important, favoring low sensitivities and reducing the value of reaction speed and other gameplay related actions. Effectively making the game more boring (as happened with Urban Terror).

More accurate hit detection models will certainly be the norm very soon and games will be designed around it, but I don't think that exchanging the one huge hitbox with accurately aligned hitboxes in a current game will be an improvement, especially if it's a fast paced action game. Quite the opposite.
Don't get me wrong, I don't say that aligned hitboxes don't work for CS, but CS is a game that is primarily build around aiming and tactical (slow) movement. ET is very different.

If you want to whine until this becomes hard coded, I promise to whine until the strafejump limitation gets removed.

nonsense. gobbledygoop. hogwash. fiddlesticks.

realistic hit detection is always better, no matter how it changes the game - and i disagree that it would, except to give a lot of people a rude awakening regarding their "skill". scoring shots that didn't really hit the player is not skill, it is lotto BY DEFINITION. remember: almost doesn't count except in horseshoes and handgrenades.

the objectives and how they are achieved would be unchanged.

[ReyalP]

realistic hit detection is always better, no matter how it changes the game -

ROFL! What an absolutely ridiculous blanket statement. Note that if your 'realistic' hit model isn't accurately lined up with what you see, then things become more random, no matter accurate the model is.

This is a game. The important thing about games is gameplay. Realism is just a distraction. Aside from requiring more accuracy, 'realistic' hit detection will change other aspects of gameplay.

Having not played the 'realistic' hit detection, I will reserve judgement on it. It could be good, it could be bad, it could require other changes to keep the game fun. To assume that it would improve the game is just silly.

[gotenks]

so you think aiming at a persons shoulder is better then aiming at their head?

[KingJackaL]

so you think aiming at a persons shoulder is better then aiming at their head?

I think they're referring to the multiple hitboxes ( > than the 4 or whatever ET has ATM ) feature - or feature-to-be, or whatever. b_realhead is a similar, although different, issue.

[ReyalP]

so you think aiming at a persons shoulder is better then aiming at their head?

No, I was respoding to ouroboros silly claim that CSish hitmodels were somehow inherently better.