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More Realism?
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Mr. CoBalt =SS=



Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2002 6:00 pm    Post subject: More Realism? Reply with quote

Hi there. My first post here but I'm a part of Litz's crew and our server's running the mod. It's quite nice.

I was wondering though, is there any way to implement a much more realistic style of gameplay, either in this mod or as a basis for another? Things like the helmet reducing damage are really sweet but I and a few others are interested in something approaching Day of Defeat in terms of One Shot, You're Dead. Or bleeding (losing a set # of HP every second) until a medic gives you a health pack. That kind of thing.

I suppose I could just go play Day of Defeat but having a Mac makes that a bit hard Wink

I have many ideas on how it could be set up but I'm afraid I don't have the technical expertise to accomplish it. Are you at all interested?
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bani
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Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2002 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: More Realism? Reply with quote

Mr. CoBalt =SS= wrote:
Hi there. My first post here but I'm a part of Litz's crew and our server's running the mod. It's quite nice.

I was wondering though, is there any way to implement a much more realistic style of gameplay, either in this mod or as a basis for another? Things like the helmet reducing damage are really sweet but I and a few others are interested in something approaching Day of Defeat in terms of One Shot, You're Dead. Or bleeding (losing a set # of HP every second) until a medic gives you a health pack. That kind of thing.

I suppose I could just go play Day of Defeat but having a Mac makes that a bit hard Wink

I have many ideas on how it could be set up but I'm afraid I don't have the technical expertise to accomplish it. Are you at all interested?


well if you want one shot you're dead, instagib is it Very Happy

bleeding should be easy, could you give further details how you want it implemented?
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Mr. CoBalt =SS=



Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2002 11:05 pm    Post subject: More details? Sure! Reply with quote

Thanks for the quick reply!

Basically... well, first off, I assume you've played some Day of Defeat? I really like how they've balanced out everything in that game in terms of weapon damage, hit models and self-repair (with your bandages) Since Wolf has medics you wouldn't need the self-repair stuff. You just hope a medic is close by.

What I envision is not so much one shot in the foot kills you (visions of early CS sniping come to mind Smile) but more like, say, 2 or 3 to the chest with a MP40/Thompson puts you down on the ground. A medic can still revive you at this point. However, take a headshot from the same gun and you're toasted. You instantly die and enter limbo mode. Limb shots make you lose health slowly until you pick up/are given a health pack. 'Bleeding' then stops

A sniper bullet to the head is instant death. A sniper bullet to the body would allow you to be revived but only for a very short time after you are shot. Say 15-30 seconds before you 'bleed out'

A question about helmets... Does a helmet absorb damage even if the person is shot in the face? Since the helmet model is separate from the player model is there any way to distinguish between a bullet hitting the guy in the helmet or hitting two inches lower, in his face? If so I think it would be best to have a sniper shot off your helmet drain you to about 20 or so while one in the face, or if you don't have a helmet, is instant death. What do you say?

Anyways, the same "time before death" would apply to all weapons in varying degrees depending on weapon and hit location. Basically the weapon damage as it is now is just ramped up and revive time limits are added in.

Flamers and panzers and venoms are a whole 'nother ball of wax. I'm still working on them.

If things like that could be added in alongside the mods already in place (anti-spawn killing, etc.) I think it would be quite a killer mod. Not that it isn't already Very Happy

If you want more details I've got lots of ideas and am in the process of writing them down better than in this rough layout. Just ask Smile
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{PS}Darkphoenix



Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm....Is it possible to implement damage zones for hit marks (bullet holes, bullet nicks, etc.) That might be turning it into SOF of Kingpin, but we might be able to make them small.
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Mr. CoBalt =SS=



Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:43 pm    Post subject: Please give feedback! Reply with quote

Okay, I've fleshed out the idea a bit more. Here goes... Twisted Evil
RtCW Realism Mod

Aim
My aim with these ideas are to provide a basis for a more realistic style of play in Return to Castle Wofenstein multiplayer. This mod would attempt to tweak weapon damage, as well as various other factors, in order to make the game less of a Quake 3 team-deathmatch style game and more of an intelligent shooter where every bullet counts and teamplay becomes even more important.

Notes
This mod would probably work best on a server that has a low respawn time. Somewhere in the 10 to 15 second range would probably be best. Since it take much fewer shots to take down a player one intense gun battle on a server with 12-16 players can quickly deplete the number of people left alive Smile In order to maintain a relatively fast pace respawn times should be kept shorter than normal.
Severs that have MaxLives on make for an even more challenging game but, due to the fact that a few spawn campers can ruin a good time, the anti-spawnkilling features from the RtCW Banimod.

Weapon Damage

Knife
Presently:
11-14 damage.
Instant kill in the back

Mod:
50 for head/chest.
25 for limbs
Instant kill in back

Luger & Colt
Presently:
18 for body
50 for head

Mod:
20 for body
10 for limbs
80 for head

MP-40
Presently:
14 for body
50 for head

Mod:
25 for body
110 for head (due to medics adding 10 health to every team member)
15 for limbs

Thompson
Presently:
18 for body
50 for head

Mod:
30 for body
120 for head
20 for limbs

Sten
Presently:
14 for body
50 for head

Mod:
25 for body
110 for head {All damage same as MP-40}
15 for limbs

Mauser
Presently:
80 for body
160 for head

Mod:
120 for body
Instant death (no revive) for head
50 for limbs

Panzerfaust
Presently: Variable depending on distance from blast

Mod: Variable as well. Larger blast radius maybe?

Venom
Presently:
20 for body
20 for head

Mod: Either higher damage and slower rate of fire (if possible) or no change (Don't want to make it a super weapon that everybody uses)

Flamethrower
Presently: Variable damage

Mod: Keep the same. Again, avoid it becoming a super-powered weapon

Grenade
Presently: Variable damage

Mod: Bump up blast radius slightly (1.5x) if possible?

Airstrike & Artillery
Stay the same in terms of damage. Present mod changes stay (random time before artillery, etc.)

MG-42 Mounted Gun
Presently:
20 for body
20 for head

Mod:
20 for body
40 for head
Due to high rate of fire and unlimited ammo it shouldn't be too powerful

After Death
Once a player is shot and killed they can wait for a medic to revive them or they can tap out into limbo mode and wait to respawn. I'd like to see the amount of time a player can wait for a medic modified so that depending on the weapon that kills them they can lay 'dying' for up to a minute. If you get shot in the head with a sniper rifle you immediately die and enter limbo mode. You are effectively DOA if a medic tries to revive you. If you are shot in the chest by a sniper rifle you die but can only be revived within the next 15-30 seconds before you 'bleed out' and enter limbo. If you die from a MP-40/Thompson you can wait for a medic for up to 30 seconds. Shot with a pistol: up to 1 minute. Gibbed by a 'nade/panzer/airstrike. Well... come on. What do you think? Wink

Bleeding
This would be an option that could be adjusted to the server admin's liking. I envision something where you lose anywhere from 0-5 health per second. This could either be set by the admin or by whatever weapon the person was shot with. Whichever's easier Smile
In many cases a person wouldn't even bleed. They'd just get stitched with three or four MP-40 rounds and they'd go down. If they somehow survived they would be 'bleeding' and would have to find a medic and get a health pack. This would stop the bleeding and allow them to be given more packs to regain their health. Alternately, the first pack could not only stop their bleeding but also give them that amount of health (20 points or whatever)
I have a feeling that, what with people tapping out, bleeding out and getting gibbed medics might become quite useless except for the few lucky soldiers who somehow survive and find one to heal them. Not unlike WWII...

This idea is a work in progress!
Please submit ideas and give feedback!!
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Mr. Litz =SS=



Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 109
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think the bleeding idea is a good one.
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jhclouse



Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:08 pm    Post subject: Injuries Reply with quote

Hi all. I'm new to the mod and this forum. But I saw this thread and just had to comment because I like the idea of more realism.

I like the bleeding idea but what I also think would be cool is to have reduced abilities after an injury. For instance, if you get hit in the arm, your accuracy should decrease--even if you've been given a medpack.

If you get hit in the leg, your ability to run and jump should be decreased.

If you get hit in the stomach, it should all be over. Since your stomach will fill with blood, you'll die of blood loss rather quickly. And even if a field medic got to you fast and managed to stop the bleeding, you'd still be sent out to a field hospital--taking you out of action. And respawning is meant to be reinforcements anyway, so you're really a different soldier when you respawn.
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Mr. CoBalt =SS=



Joined: 23 Jul 2002
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Bleeding Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply clouse. I haven't heard much from bani so I'm not sure what became of my pet idea...

The only difficulty I see with the reduced abilities is I'm not sure if certain hit locations can be mapped that accurately. But I know next to nothing about the workings of mods or even the Quake 3 engine so discount anything I say Laughing

The one other problem is there might be a point where it's just too real and loses the fun factor.
Arrow A small aside: My friends and I were discussing this a bit. How many people do you think would pay a monthly fee for a game like WWII Online if you had one life and had to survive the war? Maybe with cash prizes for surviving certain amounts of time? Granted, in real life the army pays you to fight, not the other way round... I didn't say it was a good idea Embarassed Smile

Anyways, anything in this proposed mod would have to be tweakable by the server admin so that could probably overcome any problems with too much realism.

Too late now. Must sleep
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bani
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 3685

PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm still interested in this thread, so go ahead and continue hashing out the details.

when i get the current pending stuff finished and my TODO plate cleared up a bit i'll start on the realism mode.
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{PS}Darkphoenix



Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im sorry if anything is repeated. I wrote this a while ago:

Realism Mod features-

>Everything is limited
-Med packs, dynamite, ammo packs, smoke canisters, etc.
This will force players to use teamwork and to conserve supplies.

>Medic changes (along with above)
-When reviving someone, the medic stands/crouch above/next to the fallen soldier. And "works" on him. Like in real life, sticking someone with a needle doesn't get them up. When reviving it would be like arming dynamite, there would be a status bar and the reviving would take time. How long it takes depends on where the soldier was hit (might not work.)
-We would change the syringe to look like bandages or something like that.

EDIT: Engineer
Dynamite should not flash red/yellow when armed, but should make a ticking noise. The faster it ticks, the closer it is to exploding.

>Soldier
-Gravity affects the panzer
-When shot, the panzer shell explodes

>All
-All start out with some armor (dependant on the class)
-Everyones health auto-recharges at a rate dependant upon the class. Depending on where the soldier was hit will affect recharge rate.
-Damage zones-Where ever the player was hit, a red stain would appear (this is prolly impossible)
-When damaged, the soldier walk/run/sprint slower and possibly take up more stamina.
-Grenades, when shot, explode prematurly. Also explodes when near another explosion.
-MG40's have limited ammo.
-Gravity affects everything.
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OdaOwnzYew



Joined: 30 Aug 2002
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy

this is my first post and i love this mod

i saw the idea for mounted mg's with ammo
and i said good idea

they should have 300 ammo and in each map there should be a couple supply boxes
next to it would be another box labeled
MG AMMO
only soldiers can use use key to get a box from it
it will slow them the same amount as if they were holding 5 gold bars
and the use key would drop the box into the mg's ammo supply

the max spare ammo for an mg would be 500 but it would start at 250
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jhclouse



Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2002 6:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Bleeding Reply with quote

Mr. CoBalt =SS= wrote:
The only difficulty I see with the reduced abilities is I'm not sure if certain hit locations can be mapped that accurately. But I know next to nothing about the workings of mods or even the Quake 3 engine so discount anything I say


Yeah, you might be right about that.

Quote:
The one other problem is there might be a point where it's just too real and loses the fun factor.


Yep, true enough. It depends on how it's done--and also on the people playing. There's that "pure action" crowd that hates any attempt at reality. But of course, you can only go so far with a computer game and expect it to mirror reality. And in real life, war is pretty darn tough. Wink

Quote:
Arrow A small aside: My friends and I were discussing this a bit. How many people do you think would pay a monthly fee for a game like WWII Online if you had one life and had to survive the war? Maybe with cash prizes for surviving certain amounts of time? Granted, in real life the army pays you to fight, not the other way round... I didn't say it was a good idea Embarassed Smile


I could probably be convinced, if it was gritty and interesting enough. You'd need a lot more variety than we currently have in stock RTCW. I'd want to be able to play as a P-47 pilot or tank commander, in addition to being able to play infantry. And engineers would need to be able to build bridges or do demolitions. Oh, and *real* strategy and tactics, of course.

Quote:
Anyways, anything in this proposed mod would have to be tweakable by the server admin so that could probably overcome any problems with too much realism.


Yes, of course.
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EST_Hydralisk



Joined: 04 Sep 2002
Posts: 4
Location: Sac City, Iowa

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see the recoil effect changed on the weapons. Since we are talking about realism, the recoil on the weapons should be higher. The recoil while standing is about right, however the recoil when you are crouching is totally wrong. I think you should make the recoil higher while you are crouching. While I'm standing, I fire in 3 round bursts, so I think 5 round bursts while crouching would be cool.

(By the way, recoil is when you shoot and the crosshairs get bigger, and the gun gets less accurate.)
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OdaOwnzYew



Joined: 30 Aug 2002
Posts: 92

PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2002 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

for the c0onserved supply post by darkpoenix

dynamite shouldnt flash

but with engineers it should warn them when it is near

like it says "enemy dynamite ahead"

and since its limited..... and certain points.... including spawn points... shjould have rewsuplly areas

dynamite..... each engineer shjould have 3 at start

but if kills an enemy engi... anbd walks over em... gets the amount they had... added on

but if a soldier kills a engi.... he picks up only 1 dyna with no pliers..... so you need teamwork to lay it for an ally of yours to set

same with medic...... if you kill a medic.... you get 2 med packs
if you kill another... you get 2 syringe
if you kill a lueitenant..... you get 3 ammo packs.....
2nd time you get 5 ammo packs....3rd you get more armor.... 4th you get 1 airstrike..... but when you get it before using you must have an engi arm it with your color

there should be a thing like if you revive quick jab and release... they come back with 30 health
the longer you hold the more health they come back with

gravity affecting panzer shouldnt have too much effect or it would be bad
and someone tried exploding panzer sahots once
but it only got destroyed y flame throwers

in which itd be too late
so..... i doubt it

and armor dependant on class....
luitenant has 35 armor
engineer has 40 armor
medic has 30
soldier has 50 armor

soldiers regen rate is 1 health every 3 seconds because of armor amount and more weapons
that is if hes hit in a non armor area

a soldier would have armor on shoulders... boots head and body
medic on body and head
luietenant would have armor on legs body and head
engineer has arms body head and boots

soldiers only go slower if hit on legs or boots

recoil would be nice
replying to hydralisk
the panzer dont have enough
standing up should knock you back 6 steps
crouch would knock back 3
venom has enough but still needs to be increase just a slice more
mauser.... not really....
sten... yes very slightly
mp 40.... slightly...
same with thompson
flame thrower... needs recoil

pistol needs some
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Grenade Grenade Grenade Grenade
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Ph0g



Joined: 10 Sep 2002
Posts: 1123
Location: Lurking in your bathroom

PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2002 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey CoBalt, have to ask...why do you wanna make the mp40 more powerful then the pistols? And if sten does same damage as mp40, that makes the pistols near useless to people with SMGs.

Personally i think the pistols power should be boosted since they require more skill to use and in "reality", when you shoot someone in the head with a Colt they aint gonna turn around and fire back Smile

Im also not sure about how high you made the chest damage for the knife, you usualy cant kill a soldier by stabbing him twice, why not make it lower damage and allow the bleeding effect to take place.

This might be pushing it but i think there should be a body specific factor for the bleeding implementation, so that bleeding from the head or the chest is more dangerous then bleeding from the limbs (more damage per second or more frequent damage).

Also relevant to the bleeding system, don't you think damage every second would be slightly un-realistic? I think thats a bit harsh as well. I also think there should be an alternative method to stopping bleeding other then medic packs, i dont really have any specific ideas but i still think there should be a way not involving medics.

Last but not least, is there anyway to bring kicking into multiplayer? I know it would make opening doors with the action key pointless but i really enjoy kicking Smile, another thing is that i think when a player runs into chairs it should make them move (thats probaly impossible but i wouldn't really know), cuz alot of the time people just aren't willing to boost you onto something.

An entirely new idea to add to the realism is this (if possible): Make it so you can drop your basic armor (any visual additions to this would be nice but not neccesary), when you do this you take X% more damage but on the flip side your speed increases and your stamina drains slower, i think thatd be really cool for covert ops. You could just make it toggle like the playdead command, however if you really wanna be realistic you would make it so when you drop it it becomes an item on the ground that only un-armored players could pick up.

Im all for increasing the grenades blast radius, cuz in real life those things will blow your f***ing head off Smile, and is it possible to make it so that you can kick them back in multiplayer?

anyway thats my 2 cents....
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