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Ph0g
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Post by Ph0g »

In your wealth of ignorance you fail to see that the post you quoted was a response to the one immediately above it, but I guess that's beyond you.
Hey smart one, you made my point exactly. You responded to my rant instead of responding to my point, this goes to show you have no understanding of my actual point and thus couldn't argue it.
XP is not "another tactical asset for players to manipulate", it's an irrelevance that Clans will learn to abuse, as they used to with 'nade and air-strike jumping before leagues outlawed it.
XP was added as a feature with every intent of being an asset to gameplay, trickjumping was not. It can't be abused because everyone knows it's there and everyone knows how to take advantage of it. XP is only another element to operate with, a useful one at that.
Who says I didn't realise? My point, which you're obviously too dumb to realise, is that a player can practise to become better, the game shouldn't make him or her better just because he's raked up a few kills in the space of a 30 minute round. Besides which, you say NONE of those actions can be practised in game? There's an XP reward that gives you faster reload, I can crouch to steady my aim and reduce spread, I can adjust my aim quicker if I practise. I'm not a great shot, but I'm an infinately better shot than I was 18 months ago when I started playing RTCW.
If you had understood what I said you never could have argued. People can practice to become better?!?!? No way, thanks for letting me in on this, I take it the veterans keep it between themselves!?

Hey idiot, there is not a goddamn thing you can do to make the reload animation take less time as a "better player". There is nothing you can do to make your soldier naturally compensate for recoil as a "better player". There is nothing you can do to to make your soldier aim steadier and fire with less spread as a "better player". Yes you can steady your aim, but the spread algorythms remain, partially emulating gun accuracy and partially emulating the soldier's ability.

All of these are soldier skills which can't be controlled by the player themselves no matter how skilled they are. These are the skills XP has an effect on. After a soldier repeats the use of these skills, he quite naturally becomes more efficient at them.

But once again, none of the above is my actual point. My actual point is that XP is just another asset to the game INTENDED to be used. All players start off with the exact same oppertunities for XP, and if they want to come out on top they would be wise to make use of their assets. XP is not a system of abuse, it is a system of benefit for all players. Clan matches are no exception, whiney bitches can cry all they want, it's a legitimate system beneficial to all scenarios.

As for the insults? Not knowing anything about you? I will insult you based on what you provide me with. So far you have provided me with ignorance, and thus I insult your capacity for intelligence. I do not do so in a childish manner.
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=SWAT=Kenny
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Post by =SWAT=Kenny »

the xp system is pure BULLSHIT. i want it to be abolished. here is the best example of why it should be abolished.

example: railgun
allies (team a) spawn with 6 a/s spamming fucks. they run to axis (team b) spawn and a/s spam them for 10 min. all the while they are increasing their xp for spawnkilling and throwing a/s cans. why the fuck should anyone be rewarded for that? additionally allied medics can be reviving the a/s spawnkillers and driving up thier xp.

now u have a team of allies (team a) that have god like xp for being cheap fucktards. now lets say allies (team a) defeat axis (team b) with this way of play. round 2 axis (team b) now go allies (team b) and allies (team a) keep all the xp they gained from spawn raping. now the axis (team a) easily shoot and kill their competition based on the fact that their xp levels are so high.

xp should only reward with items not skill levels. additionally medics can now become gods. how fucking retarded is that? being an uber medic doesnt encourage teamplay is squashes it. why be an eng. when u can be a medic that after a 20-30 revives becomes a god that can inject himself and overcome just about anything (oh and he gets a tighter spread.)

the XP system is the biggest crap based system i have seen. it does reward to a small extent those that do their jobs and help the team. however it overwhealingly rewards fucktards that a/s spam and uber medics. how many medics in ww2 were able to jump thru a firefight reviving themselves while killing enemies and reviving their own? A: NONE. if you want god medics just set medic recharge to 1000 off the bat.

what drives me crazy is that basic teamplay contribution is not rewarded. for example on rail gun if you are axis and get on the tug and get the tug from axis spawn to the ammo depot you get 0 yes 0 XP for accomplishing this task unless you kill people along the way. once again that is blatant bullshit. a med can get xp by reviving and doing his part but a regular player doesnt get shit for accomplishing the obj.

personally i think the XP system will lead ET to its death in 6 months or less. the beta only kept peoples interest for a few weeks. the only thing that will keep peoples interest on this final release is 6 maps. w00t. personally this game is boring as hell when the other team has more xp. you see people all the time going give us him he has more xp. wtf is that crap?

ph0g take 2 seconds on this thought. the opposing team crys you guys are raping us. send us over the high xp guys. ph0g you happen to be on the team with the high xp guys and you joined on the 4th map of the campaign. you are a better shot but they dont want you they want the high xp fucktards. so now peoples perceptions have changed. they dont want team players or great shots they want assholes with a lot of xp. it is easy to get a lot of xp on a 6 map campaign.

ph0g i am not insulting you however the xp system is complete crap.
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Post by gotenks »

=SWAT=Kenny wrote: xp should only reward with items not skill levels. additionally medics can now become gods. how fucking retarded is that? being an uber medic doesnt encourage teamplay is squashes it. why be an eng. when u can be a medic that after a 20-30 revives becomes a god that can inject himself and overcome just about anything (oh and he gets a tighter spread.)
sorry someone has to say it
damn overpowered medics
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Ph0g
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Post by Ph0g »

xp should only reward with items not skill levels. additionally medics can now become gods. how fucking retarded is that? being an uber medic doesn't encourage teamplay is squashes it. why be an eng. when u can be a medic that after a 20-30 revives becomes a god that can inject himself and overcome just about anything (oh and he gets a tighter spread.)
Because after destroying and rebuilding an MG42 a few times an engineer gets a flak jacket which makes him *INVULNERABLE* to splash damage! That includes grenades, dynamite, and panzerfrausts.

Besides, those uber-medics can do a damned good job of keeping everyone alive.
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Post by Kendle »

Ph0g wrote:
In your wealth of ignorance you fail to see that the post you quoted was a response to the one immediately above it, but I guess that's beyond you.
Hey smart one, you made my point exactly. You responded to my rant instead of responding to my point, this goes to show you have no understanding of my actual point and thus couldn't argue it.
Really can't be arsed to read all your drivel, but just to pick up on this. Notice the smilie on the end of the sentence? You reply to my arguments with Ahh, the ignorance is becoming overwhelming, but when I do it I'm responding to your rant rather than your point?

You've only made one, dubious point, which I've countered with reasoned argument. You respond to anyone that doesn't agree with you with insults and slurs. GG you.

As you can see many others think XP stinks. I don't actually fully agree with that, just in the context of Clan games.

No point continuing this cos you're obviously a complete retard. Bye dick, bye Bani forums, GL HF.
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Post by Sexy|Beast »

=SWAT=Kenny wrote:...however the xp system is complete crap.
It needs lots of work for sure. Though, to be fair, the XP gained from airstrike kills goes towards FO skill, not Light Weapons. The only way to gain better SMG aim is through Light Weapons promotions (kills). So, killing lots of folks with airsrtikes lets you throw more strikes (oh yay), etc. XP doesn't cross-polinate. Now, the FO/Medic XP exploit is what really pisses me off.

Overall though, I'd have to say I like the XP points and promotions. It is a brilliant system that just needs lots and lots of testing and refining.
Things are more like they are now than they were before.
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Post by Ph0g »

Kendle wrote:
Ph0g wrote:
In your wealth of ignorance you fail to see that the post you quoted was a response to the one immediately above it, but I guess that's beyond you.
Hey smart one, you made my point exactly. You responded to my rant instead of responding to my point, this goes to show you have no understanding of my actual point and thus couldn't argue it.
Really can't be arsed to read all your drivel, but just to pick up on this. Notice the smilie on the end of the sentence? You reply to my arguments with Ahh, the ignorance is becoming overwhelming, but when I do it I'm responding to your rant rather than your point?

You've only made one, dubious point, which I've countered with reasoned argument. You respond to anyone that doesn't agree with you with insults and slurs. GG you.

As you can see many others think XP stinks. I don't actually fully agree with that, just in the context of Clan games.

No point continuing this cos you're obviously a complete retard. Bye dick, bye Bani forums, GL HF.
I begin with "the ignorance is overwhelming", and then point out how you were ignorant. I have made multiple points, none of which you have countered more effectively than a complete moron.

Many people think XP stinks, because many people are as stupid and ignorant as you (if not most).

I can only hope that you will not be returning to these forums.
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Imbroglio
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Post by Imbroglio »

alright, i dunno what to say aside from the fact that i don't understand this, kenny, 80% of the ppl that play ET are complete NOOBS!!!! fu[k the XP, i joined in a 3 map campaign while they were on their 3rd map and i ended up atop my team with XP, while also achieving medals for most frags and highest light weapons skill, i had 500+ xp after one round, why do you complain, the ppl in there SUCK at shooting, i was killing ppl from half way across the maps, the only thing this XP is doing is making the better ppl better and the bad ppl stay at the bottom, and surely you should be one of the better ppl, unless of course i am completely overestimating your skill level, but easily 90% of the ppl talking in this topic alone should always be at the top, and thats where i don't understand your complaining of the XP, as for the whole idea itself, i absolutly love it, rewarding ppl for their accomplishments is what wolf needs

as an example, and i don't want surge to take this personally but this is just an example and you have a good obj shot so you will work with this example, okay at beach on a bani obj, lets say surge was camping the docs, which doesn't completely irritate me, but it does when good players do it, anyways, as you proceed to the doc room, say you kill 3 ppl along the way, should your reward for those 3 kills be getting 3 points just to make it to the doc room, where surge then proceeds to kill you for 8 points just for being in that room, or should the person with 3 kills get something more for doing more, even though the scores would clearly not indicate that, that is where the XP takes over, say i move up a level and get the faster reload, well now that surge is in the doc room, say i make it down there and have to reload, well my reload is now faster than his, and that enables me to kill him, and more rewards will come as you prove yourself, but anyways, the point is, first off, if you are on a noob team that can't make it outta the spawn point, you have bigger problems than worrying about the XP system, second, the whole idea and system of rewards is a great addition to a great game...... then again, hey what do i know right??? :roll:
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Post by bacon »

Would you all just STFU? You keep re-stating and re-stating the SAME arguements over and over and over and over again.
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Post by =SWAT=Kenny »

Imbroglio wrote:alright, i dunno what to say aside from the fact that i don't understand this, kenny, 80% of the ppl that play ET are complete NOOBS!!!! fu[k the XP, i joined in a 3 map campaign while they were on their 3rd map and i ended up atop my team with XP, while also achieving medals for most frags and highest light weapons skill, i had 500+ xp after one round, why do you complain, the ppl in there SUCK at shooting, i was killing ppl from half way across the maps, the only thing this XP is doing is making the better ppl better and the bad ppl stay at the bottom, and surely you should be one of the better ppl, unless of course i am completely overestimating your skill level, but easily 90% of the ppl talking in this topic alone should always be at the top, and thats where i don't understand your complaining of the XP, as for the whole idea itself, i absolutly love it, rewarding ppl for their accomplishments is what wolf needs
i gather you were a med and on a noob server to get 500xp in one level. i have been playing on austin ET and the ND servers and i have yet to see anyone do that. additionally not that you cheat but there are lots of cheaters in wolf ET now. that is another topic but it is true. pb is not catching a lot of the cheats instead it is just kicking people for cd key lameness.

i am not a highly skilled wolfalete. i play for FUN and i would say i am above adverage. i dont headshot a lot unless i am a sniper. which btw is completely jacked in ET. as a sniper it takes like 3-4 headshots to kill someone now in ET.
Imbroglio wrote: as an example, and i don't want surge to take this personally but this is just an example and you have a good obj shot so you will work with this example, okay at beach on a bani obj, lets say surge was camping the docs, which doesn't completely irritate me, but it does when good players do it, anyways, as you proceed to the doc room, say you kill 3 ppl along the way, should your reward for those 3 kills be getting 3 points just to make it to the doc room, where surge then proceeds to kill you for 8 points just for being in that room, or should the person with 3 kills get something more for doing more, even though the scores would clearly not indicate that, that is where the XP takes over, say i move up a level and get the faster reload, well now that surge is in the doc room, say i make it down there and have to reload, well my reload is now faster than his, and that enables me to kill him, and more rewards will come as you prove yourself, but anyways, the point is, first off, if you are on a noob team that can't make it outta the spawn point, you have bigger problems than worrying about the XP system, second, the whole idea and system of rewards is a great addition to a great game...... then again, hey what do i know right??? :roll:
well as it stands i have yet to see something like railgun or fueldepot that compares to anything in RTCW. ET is more like BF1942 then wolf. not good or bad it just is. regardless one should not get benefits for doing things that should be accomplished by the class. should and eng be rewarded greatly for blowing something up that HAS to be blown up? additionally engs recieve lots of xp for planting mines. that is as gay as it can get. its on par with repairing the mg that ph0g mentioned. the game now rewards on ramboism not on team play. the engs scenarios are a great example.

WOLF is about teamwork. one medic can not win the game against 15 opponents. the xp system doesnt reward for teamwork it rewards for individualism. the team should be rewarded by feats done by the individuals.

i would argue that 90% of team based sports require teamwork to win. football and wolf are very similar. does the team get a touchdown or does the player that got the touchdown get the points? sure the player gets the stats but it doenst make him more powerful and able to break tackles at a single bound. if the qb is doing what his job is, should he be rewarded more then a running back for doing his job? i dont think so. one may get paid more then the other but one can not do his job without the other.

its like on the beach map in ET. a med can have huge xp and still can not win without the eng. since the eng blows up the final obj shouldnt he be reward 1000x more then the med? after all without the eng the med cant be on the team that wins because meds can not arm dyno...yet. :shock:

wolf was a great game until bani came along and made it better with the concept of balance. et is an ok game and needs to be modded heavily to make it a great game. the xp system is an interesting idea however it needs like 5 - 10 more revisions b4 it should be considered good. the xp system needs a lot more thought behind it to make it balanced.

one last thought. in Last Man Standing OLTL) play should the last man standing be rewarded with 1000 xp since he is in fact the last man standing? btw he could have hid the whole time to be the LMS.
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Post by Imbroglio »

i agree with the teamwork aspect, yet in turn there are team sports such as baseball that require individualism more so than a team effort, yes you need the 1st baseman to catch the ball, but if the 3rd baseman can't make the throw, then its not the 1st baseman's fault, same for batting, if nobody can hit that particular day, then the team obviously won't win, and like it or not thats how war is, its truely team-based strategy with the individualistic aspect attached to it, for example, like yours with the beach, granted the docs won't be retrieved until the wall is blown, yet doesn't the eng need to be able to ward off opponents to plant the dyno, or will he just sit there and rely on the med to revive him 20 times until he eventually makes it to the wall, yeah teamwork, but to what extent? if you have two highly skilled players would they not be able to defeat a team of 6 or 7 noobs? i think too often too much teamwork is attempted to be put into the game, and at some point, everyone will have to deal with the individualistic aspect as a coping means, yeah, great if your team works together 9 out of 10 times they will win, but even a team not working together that has 2 or 3 amazing ppl, will still manage to overcome the opposition, and at what point did the others on that team participate in the accomplishment of the goal, and how much of that is truely teamwork and how much is individualism? i guess what i'm saying, is there has to be a line drawn at some point, to regard that the game will have X amount of teamwork involved, and Y amount of individualism, cause below all team play, individualistic tasks must be completed first...

and to answer your question, yes i was a medic, i was one of the few ppl that didn't have to ask for ammo, because i read how to pick up the other teams SMG, so i would pick that up and rally off the next line of attackers, i think in the end i had 15 revives and something like 60 kills, while dying about 10 times, being a medic helped, but also knowing the maps and reading that site that i posted, ET 4 Dummies, and just knowing things that others don't is a tremendous advantage

and to add, if anyone doesn't know, there is a extremely helpful stats tool used in ET, all you have to type in /bind <key> +stats, and when you hit that key, it will tell you everything from, kill, and what weapon you kill with, to weapons you were killed by, to the amount of XP needed to move to the next level :wink:
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=SWAT=Kenny
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Post by =SWAT=Kenny »

brog i think you missed my point. first the beach i was refferring to was in ET not Wolf. we all know a eng nor a med is not needed in wolf. just jump the wall. second the player i mentioned getting the tug to the ammo depot received nada, zip zero for moving the tug to the ammo depot. if that player doesnt move the tug the axis can not win.

the xp point system gives credit for non-eventful things like a/s rebuilding a mg and laying mines. whereas it should reward those that move to further the team to winning like moving the tug to the ammo depot.

a medic reviving is just that; a medic reviving. just like an eng planting dyno is no more then an eng planting dyno. why should you be rewarded for something your class is expected to do? that is where my analogy for sports comes in. a team player is expected to preform his or her function.
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Post by Ph0g »

a medic reviving is just that; a medic reviving. just like an eng planting dyno is no more then an eng planting dyno. why should you be rewarded for something your class is expected to do? that is where my analogy for sports comes in. a team player is expected to preform his or her function.
For three reasons:

A. Not everyone does it, the XP system motivates classes to play their roles. Unlike sports, nothing stops people from not doing their job in ET.

B. It makes having class-specific skills possible, if they weren't, mastering one class would be mastering them all. That would be less interesting.

C. Whether or not they are expected to do it, it is still an effort to support the team. Killing an enemy helps the team, you are expected to do it, and you get experience for doing it.
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=SWAT=Kenny
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Post by =SWAT=Kenny »

Ph0g wrote: For three reasons:

A. Not everyone does it, the XP system motivates classes to play their roles. Unlike sports, nothing stops people from not doing their job in ET.
ok so let's reward people for choosing axis or allies. just becuase someone knows how to revive doesnt mean they should get lots of rewards for it. most noobs dont get the classes, however vets shouldn't be rewarded for doing what their class should do. hell if that were the case a pf soldier should get the same xp credit as a medic should. he is killing enemies as he should. btw not a whole lot of medics during ww2 had guns to be offensive with.
Ph0g wrote: B. It makes having class-specific skills possible, if they weren't, mastering one class would be mastering them all. That would be less interesting.
it is already less interesting. cant mess it up more then it is now. ph0g if you agree meds should get a bunch of xp points for revives then you must agree that a pf soldier or a covert ops guy should get the exact same credit for firing a pf or stealing a uniform and unlocking a door.
Ph0g wrote: C. Whether or not they are expected to do it, it is still an effort to support the team. Killing an enemy helps the team, you are expected to do it, and you get experience for doing it.
see my comments above. additionally if you are a soldier with a mg42 then you should get xp for putting it on its tripod since that is what you are expected to do with the tool that you carry.
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Post by Ph0g »

ok so let's reward people for choosing axis or allies. just becuase someone knows how to revive doesnt mean they should get lots of rewards for it. most noobs dont get the classes, however vets shouldn't be rewarded for doing what their class should do. hell if that were the case a pf soldier should get the same xp credit as a medic should. he is killing enemies as he should. btw not a whole lot of medics during ww2 had guns to be offensive with.
Choosing axis or allies is not something you make an effort towards. Knowing how to revive does not earn you XP, reviving earns you XP. Just like everything else you get XP for, reviving a teammate is a positive action beneficial to the team. Veterans aswell as newbies are awarded for all beneficial actions, what they should and shouldn't do is hardly relevant. Panzerfraust soldiers get their XP based on what they do, just in a different way. As for medics in WW2, this argument has nothing to do with realism, and I am not defending medics, I am defending the XP system.
it is already less interesting. cant mess it up more then it is now. ph0g if you agree meds should get a bunch of xp points for revives then you must agree that a pf soldier or a covert ops guy should get the exact same credit for firing a pf or stealing a uniform and unlocking a door.
Kenny what players should do is irrelevant, players are rewarded for taking beneficial action, not for doing their jobs. By your reasoning, doing anything you are expected to do should not earn you XP, and thus nothing should earn you XP. You can argue against the XP system as a whole, but you CAN NOT argue against the specific XP bonuses for class roles because the same logic could be applied to the rest of the system.
see my comments above. additionally if you are a soldier with a mg42 then you should get xp for putting it on its tripod since that is what you are expected to do with the tool that you carry.
- Reviving a teammate helps out the team, so does healing them thus you get XP for it.
- Killing your enemies helps out the team, so you get XP for it.
- Repairing an MG42 helps out the team, so you get XP for it.
- Dynamiting objectives helps out the team, so you get XP for it.

- Simply firing a panzer, unlocking a door, or deploying an MG doesn't do jack shit for your team, so you don't get XP for it.

The system is not built on what you are expected to do, it is built on what you do in an effort to benefit the team effort.

Kenny argue against the XP system as a whole, but you can't argue against its sub-systems because they all fit the same structure.
Last edited by Ph0g on Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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