Cov-op balancing (dummy weapons, poison knife)

[Yankeeman]

On the other end: Covert Ops is not supposed to be an offensive class.

ding ding i think we have a winner !!!
i totally agree. if the covert is doing his job and not out grabbing uni's every time he sees a dead body then he wouldnt have so much of a problem. spot the mines blow things up and leave the killing to the teammates that are supposed to kill.
also to get something you have to give something . if you can dress in my uni i should be able to kill you easier. because it might only be a second before i know its you but that second might be enough time for you to kill me even with a crappy weapon

[Svartberg]

read http://www.angeltowns.com/members/svart ... rative.txt

[Pamper]

On the other end: Covert Ops is not supposed to be an offensive class.

Huh? What else is it for, then? Is he a "defensive" class? <i>"Quick, get a couple Coverts into the bank to protect our gold!!"</i>

<b>Defensive covert powers</b>: Sniping. Waiting for enemies to step on satchel. (Both of those suck)
<b>Offsensive covert powers</b>: Sniping. Minespotting. Satcheling objectives. Disguising. Smoke clouding.
Which of those two sets of powers is the covert more important for?

[gotenks]

Sniping. Minespotting. Satcheling objectives. Disguising. Smoke clouding.

With exception of Satcheling objectives which can be either offense or defense all those are defense. Offense is going for the goal to get the job done... in most maps this is done by the engineers. the covert ops disrupt opperations behind enemy lines

[Pamper]

Sniping. Minespotting. Satcheling objectives. Disguising. Smoke clouding.

With exception of Satcheling objectives which can be either offense or defense all those are defense. Offense is going for the goal to get the job done... in most maps this is done by the engineers. the covert ops disrupt opperations behind enemy lines

Yes, corrent. <i>"Offense is going for the goal to get the job done"</i> is absolutely right. But you're wrong with the rest of it. Smoke-clouds are something you use <b>on offense</b> to get close to the enemy objective. Smoke is only used by attackers, never defenders. If any Axis Covert throws smoke in our own base he deserves a TK.

Landmines are <b>"defense"</b>, to keep the enemy out of your base. Therefore mine-spotting must be the opposite, or <b>"offense"</b>. Do the Axis ever have to spot mines to protect the Fuel Dump or the Gun Control? No, because spotting is not defensive.

Satcheling objectives is almost totally offense, except in the very rare cases where you can destroy an assault ramp or footbridge. But besides battery, it's mostly offensive.

You're also wrong about Coverts <i>"disrupting operations behind enemy lines"</i>. Theoretically they should be able to do that, but they suck at it. A Rambo Medic is 10 times better at going behind them and making trouble.

[Pamper]

The covert ops class currently sucks. Svartberg is right that only total newbs ever get fooled by a disguise. (He's wrong they don't get a helmet though. It only <i>looks</i> like a hat) And Covert is weak for other reasons. It's a little like the Engineer, in that you only really need one if the map has a specific job for that class. But Coverts are even worse than Eng for many reasons:

• <li>most all maps need an Eng (and for both sides, since Axis counter Allies by rebuilding or disarming when Allied Eng plants. But for Axis to repair the damage done by an Ally Covert, they need an Eng, not a Covert.)
  <li>When a map needs an Eng, you normally need him for a critical, game-winning purpose (planting or defusing the final objective). Coverts normally only get to do a helper objective along the way.
  <li>Eng get a weapon equally as powerful as other classes- the SMG. Or they can have one that's sometimes even better, the riflegrenade. All three weapons a Covert gets are worse than a standard Tommy or MP40. (In certain situations, Covert weapons equal an SMG in power, but never beat it. At long range, the more accurate Sten is as good as an SMG. And at very short range, the inaccurate K98 is about as good as SMG. The FG42 and Garande are never good)
  <li>Disguise is completely worthless. Notice that "Disguise" is really a separate power from "Opening doors", even though you get both of them by stealing a uniform. Opening doors is occasionally useful in a game, but the disguise itself never is. Coverts actually might be better off if they just took the keys from his pocket and left the pants. A few of the many reasons disguise sucks:
  • <li>On uncrowded servers (6v6 or less), there are so few enemies that they'll always know where each other are, and you'll never trick them.
    <li>On crowded servers, there are so many enemies that you can't walk between them without getting inside detection range.
  For additional proof that disguise sucks, just look at the fact that it gives you 5 XP. If it were actually useful, the game wouldn't need to <b>pay</b> XP for disguising- players would want to do it anyway.

The most useless power a Covert has is Disguise, but yet, it's the power that gives the class it's name! (Sniping is 2nd most useless) Disguising can be a lot of fun if a game supports it correctly, like the old TeamFortress did. In TF, I could actually disguise, sneak into an enemy base, trick some people, and then do something useful (kill all snipers!). Then immediately re-disguise and trick them again (even though they respawn instantly).

Svartberg mentioned some ways to increase the power of Covert disguise, but I don't think he goes nearly far enough. A dummy gun an a poisoned knife won't help too much in the long run. Here are some things that can make Disguise stronger. I believe that a server would have to enable most of these to make disguise decent (but using <b>all</b> of them might be overkill)

• <li>Allow any player to use any SMG. That means a Covert can pickup a Thompson, and a Medic can grab a Sten. This'll make Coverts stronger at fighting, and able to fight longer behind enemy lines (since they can recover ammo). And of course it will make Disguises harder to spot, because they can actually have the correct weapon sometimes. This is also more realistic (although realism is not important).
  <li>Allow a soldier to grab any weapon (including sniper rifles). They suck, but if a soldier wants one, why not let him? This will also make it harder to tell if a guy with an FG42 is disguised or not.
  <li>Take away the FieldOps level 4 skill power ("Enemy Recognition"). Instead, split up their Level 1 power into two: At level 1 you can throw more ammo packs, and at Level 4 they get to be double-packs.
  <li>Put a "Spy" icon over the head of every friendly disguised covert. You shouldn't have to spam V6 (or join a fireteam) just to stop teammates from wasting their ammo on you.
  <li>If an enemy is disguised as part of your fireteam, he gets the fireteam icon on his head (until he's close enough for the name to go away)
  <li>Change the icons on the commandmap so that a disguised teammate looks different from an enemy. No Covert should ever need to get TKed by a mortar because he was disguised behind the enemy!
  <li>Take half as much time to steal pants. But, you're not in disguise instantly. Instead, you now have a new weaponbank 8 which is the uniform you can put on anytime later. (And it can be taken back off at will)
  <li>A Disguised Covert should only be Detected when he harms an enemy and is seen or heard doing it. (No just because he fired an FG42 in the middle of nowhere).
  <li>When a Disguise is Detected, the stolen uniform shouldn't just vanish into thin air. Instead, the Covert should get a "Spy" icon floating over his head, visible to the enemy team. (And the enemy will see him on the commandmap as orange). That should last until he's able to spend 6 seconds with no enemy seeing him.
  <li>Reduce the range that names disappear when looking at a disguised enemy. And, if you can only see his back (not the face), then cut that range in half. However, to compensate, binoculars should help detect a disguise from much further off.

If all or most of those changes were done, then we might actually see good players tricking each other with disguises once in a while. However, the danger to improving disguise is that it'll increase the times that players TK each other because <i>"you looked like a spy!"</i>. In particular, newbies who don't know which way to go will get killed because <i>"only an Allied spy would've run towards the objective like that"</i>. So any changes in this regard should be optional cvars, so that some servers can stay newb-friendly.

PS. One good way to make a poisoned knife would be to let you right-click with the knife to dip it in poison. That'll take 50% of your energy, last 10 seconds, and quadruple the knife damage.

[Pamper]

leave the killing to the teammates that are supposed to kill.

Hmm, if a guy's level 4 skill is named "Assasin", do you think he's supposed to kill? Meanwhile, people called "Medics" (doesn't sound like he should kill at all) actually do tons of fighting.

also to get something you have to give something . if you can dress in my uni i should be able to kill you easier.

Coverts give up a lot, and don't get much back for it.
Would you say that if you can heal yourself, I should be able to kill you easier?
"You don't run out of ammo, I should be able to kill you easier?"
"You can shoot a giant killer rocket, I should be able to kill you easier?"

Soldiers get the best weapons. The other 3 classes get a medium weapon (the MP40) and special powers. But Coverts are stuck with both the worst special powers, and weapons weaker than MP40. It just doesn't make sense.

Often you can predict which team will win on a map by counting who has fewer Coverts...

[Svartberg]

I already implemented the features ii mentioned in my mod.
a few weapon balancing (faster sten, balanced garand), dummy weapons and the icon for disguised coverts, (works like a charm), and faster mine detection for higher levels. (very important, especially for decent matches)

[KyleRTCW]

My point of view is that covert ops is 50% useful, the other useless.

Covert Ops is a good class to pick if you don't want to worry about giving health/ammo packs out and not having to wory aobut building/destorying stuff. But sniping can help the team a lot, just today when I was playing ET, 4 people in Temple where running to the tank and one had the obj. I sniped and killed the one with obj along which who ever went for the obj. I nailed all 4 before they could get to the tank. Yes, a MP40 or a MG42 could work too, but with a K43 on the axis, it only take 1-3 shots to take someone down, with out using 2 clips form the MP40.

Coverty Ops are pretty good use for sneaking into the fueldump. I'm sure as hell, americans took germans' suits in WW2 to diguise themselves for something... but anyway, it's called stealth. It's a challenge for the covert ops to make it to the fueldump or whatever without losing the uni or being caught.

Now the sten would be a lot better if it didn't have a heat thing. Because the sten is rather more damaging at close range and more accurate. The FG42 sucks, the K43 is very good for sniping, and also, is okay for close combat, because I do well with the K43 in close combat, i've killed 4-5 in a row before i was killed with it.

Sniping can be a good thing like i said before, particualry near the obj, you can clear all camping axis/allies to clear the way for your team.

Sacheling is a great time saver for some objectives, the quick destruction of the command post, holding off allied/axis spawn (like in radar). Although i thing the sacthels are a little weak. But if you use it in a usefull way, they can help alot, destroying that friggin MG42 tower, hich is a miracle on those huge servers.

Smoke Bombs are supposed to hide anything behind it/in it. But my view is it gives the other team a hint of what's going on, if a smoke grenade was spotted by the side wall, the axis would go there and fire all it's panzers and artillery into it. Using a smoke bomb sucks, and is usually useless.

Covert Ops are usually useless in Radar(wouldn't be if there was no fog), Railgun, Goldrush, Oasis, etc. (not fueldump) the reason being is that none of these maps support any sniping, no far ranges, no cover for a sniper, etc.

Overall, I think the covert ops class is a ok class (50/50) and this is my view on it.

[Pamper]

But sniping can help the team a lot

No it can't. Not unless you've got some amazing ping+fps, better than anyone else. Sniping is usually just a waste of time. Everytime I see someone sniping, it always turns out he could've been more helpful to the team by going either med or eng and charging towards the enemy. (Or, if you really need to kill someone from far off, just use a panzer so he can't be revived)
(The original version of the lost temple map was unique, because in the beginning sniping was important to help cross the river. But in the final version of that map the river is easy to cross, and you don't need snipers)

just today when I was playing ET, 4 people in Temple where running to the tank and one had the obj. I sniped and killed the one with obj along which who ever went for the obj. I nailed all 4 before they could get to the tank.

And then what happened? Did you actually go on to win the game? I can't see how you would've, unless there was another Axis down on the ground to return the gold. Otherwise, after those 4 guys died and dropped the obj near the tank, it sits there for (at most) 12 seconds. Then the entire Allied team spawns right there and runs back to capture.

Coverty Ops are pretty good use for sneaking into the fueldump. I'm sure as hell, americans took germans' suits in WW2 to diguise themselves for something... but

No, only absolute idiots (or newbies) get fooled by a disguise in ET. If the enemy is stupid then sneaking inside with a uni is "challenging"- otherwise, it's plain impossible. (You can maybe get inside if a teammate kills the defenders for you, but you can't actually fool anyone with the uni. A stolen uni is only good for doors)

Now the sten would be a lot better if it didn't have a heat thing. Because the sten is rather more damaging at close range and more accurate.

The sten is more damaging at close range? Than what? The pistol? That's the only weapon that does less damage than the Sten.


Sniping can be a good thing like i said before, particualry near the obj, you can clear all camping axis/allies to clear the way for your team.

Covert Ops are usually useless in Radar(wouldn't be if there was no fog),

Nope, the fog is irrelevant. Coverts are sometimes important on Radar- only on the 2nd stage of the map. Allies need someone to spot mines around the radars, and Axis need someone to blow up the commandpost.

[bacon]

And the ignoramus award goes to....pamper!

[KyleRTCW]

lol, I don't care if he totally disagrees, I told you it was MY view on it. NOt yours, not your mom's. Mine. Go on and disagree, it ain't goin gto change my mind.

[Witchdr]

Hmm, i like some of the ideas being thrown out here.

I'd vote for:

1. level 4 Poison knife or instaknife (could we have a short range throwable knife?).
2. Sniper headshot kills & 1 sniper shot gibbing of bodies.
3. Keep uniform but have Covert icon if discovered by enemy. Go back to covert when out of sight of enemy.
4. Give Coverts a faster sprint: More useful when trying to run home objectives.
5. The ability to blow up enemy mines with sniper rifle shot. Be great fun blowing up an eng laying a minefield.
6. Fake FFE & airstrike canisters (take 1/2 bar).

Oh & most important of all Fix Garand to allow reload

[Kamel]

On the other end: Covert Ops is not supposed to be an offensive class.

so, can you explain to me why there is a generator on battery to blow, the depo defenses, and mgnests? also, how many times is spotting landmines going to help the offense? what about team-only doors? how many offensive team only doors are there?

just a few questions unanswered i'd like to know... very rarely do the defense need to spot landmines or use satchels.

covert ops is 100% an offensive class IMO, and there is no problem with them. if there's a problem with any class it's the medic... they should not get a HP bonus, i don't care if you are the best medic in the world, bullets are bullets and hurt you just as much as they hurt the engineer over there.

[daytroxative]

alot of the times if i stay back.. keep it fast paced and stealthy i can avoid death alot.... this helps my team cause i can quickly snipe after coming out for a second... move and snipe... (crouch)... lay smoke where it would help.... spot mines get uni's and let teammates in he backdoors... i notice the weapon is just as useful as any other... and when you snipe more than you shoot normally it becomes powerful... if your careful.... covert ops are great... i like them... and you cant steer me away from them... with et pro 3.0.0+ it's a little harder to get caught as cov... cause if they cant see you directly your not caught evn when shooting sometimes i notice...