Dear Bani

[bani]

Rubbish. Most maps balance offense and defense and whats more most people like the way them the way they are.

you mean people liked etmain battery? railgun is liked just fine? these are balanced maps in your opinion?

[ouroboro]

perhaps yes, perhaps no, but it would make morse sense to create new maps rather than changing the current ones.

that said, your battery back door change is lovely. still, a new map similar to battery would have been even cooler, IMO

[bani]

that said, your battery back door change is lovely. still, a new map similar to battery would have been even cooler, IMO

we'd still be waiting for a new map, if that was the case.

mappers have pretty much given up on the et community because of all the abuse. can't say i blame them, i know how they feel.

[ouroboro]

yes, that's an unfortunately valid point. the thread by ifurita on sd forums makes that sadly clear. i know that's not in your hands, and you are doing the best you can with the maps you have.

[Nogen]

you mean people liked etmain battery? railgun is liked just fine? these are balanced maps in your opinion?

My point was they are balanced...they just have a longer time scale. ET is more like the 10000 metre race, it takes time and strategy. I'd rather see it stay that way than turn into the 100 metre sprint.

In a thread somewhere I said that I was in favour of small changes that were made which could speed things up without altering the gameplay very much ie without changing the strategies too much. The forward spawns for the big maps I think are examples of this. The battery changes were also only small changes and had the added advantage of increasing the usage of areas of the map. Having said this I think that having the ramp only dyno-able and the back door dyno-able makes the maps time base too short...one or the other is better.

In general I think you can achieve changes to the time base of a map simply by altering spawn times for both sides. I'd rather see this than drastic changes to maps.

[ReyalP]

My point was they are balanced...they just have a longer time scale. ET is more like the 10000 metre race, it takes time and strategy. I'd rather see it stay that way than turn into the 100 metre sprint.

Have you ever played a 3+ hour competition match ? I have, and while I can't speak for for anyone else, IMO, it stops being much fun quite a while before that.

Having said this I think that having the ramp only dyno-able and the back door dyno-able makes the maps time base too short...one or the other is better.

In TWL at least, the ramp is satchel, and the back is dyna.

[dragon]

Full holds are a good thing not a bad thing if you make it impossible to get a full hold what is the point in there even being a defence

Tell me you're joking? What's more fun to watch AND play in..

2 Teams having Draws on Goldrush for 3 hours

or 2 Teams setting times and then having great action whilst they try and beat the times? And the match being over between 60 and 90 mins?

Any game that takes more than about 12-15 mins per round sucks the big one imho

[Nogen]

Personally I don't give a toss about what is more fun to watch. Sports/games are about the people playing them. They only become about the people watching them when there is a few bucks to be made.

Many sporting competitions penalize both teams for having a draw. Consider soccer leagues for example. 3 points for a win and 1 each for a draw. I know the ladders are structured completely differently to most ET ladders but maybe there is something in the concept.

The other big consequence of a draw is to add value and tension to future matches between the two teams. I would rather see the game played out as it is...to a draw if necessary and then some other method to break the deadlock if a result is necessary.

How do you rate this for an idea for structuring stopwatch games to deal with full holds...
each time there is a fullhold you add 5 minutes to the clock for the next team until someone set a time. It deals with the draw after draw after draw problem...but not really with the "I want the whole game to be incredibly fast paced and over really quickly because I have no patience" problem.

Take the idea further and it could be like the game horse (made famous in tony hawk games etc). One team sets a time then the next team has to beat it and then the first team has to beat the new time etc and it keeps going till one team fails to beat the previous teams time. This could even work with more than 2 teams... The whole ladder could be played this way... The best times against each team on each map could be recorded. Once a team has defended against all other teams on a particular map points can be awarded based on the best times. This way full holds would be inconsequential, you could even award teams extra points in their defensive games for every full hold they get.
Okay now I am rambling....

[meLonF]

A good ET team, like any sporting team, has three facets - strategy, tactics (together making teamwork) and individual skill. With a longer map you find that strategy dominates - a few seconds saved or lost here and there makes all the difference. The shorter you make maps the more tactics dominate. There seems to be a culture of trying to make maps as short as possible and almost completely remove the strategy element.

I think most people who protest these changes recognise this. ET needs all three elements and I for one feel that they should be preserved.

Please feel free to explain why maps like Supply Depot and Radar (fast offensively biased) involve less strategy than say Goldrush or Oasis (slower more defensively biased). Supply depot for example requires very good strategies to know when to push forward or fall back to the next stage

Here is an example of problem with defensively biased maps: Team A is the stronger team and defend goldrush first, hold the tank for 5 minutes then end up full holding at 2nd tank barrier. Team B defends and gets overrun at the tank quickly, bank doors are blown with 7 minutes gone, but Team B setup a good back defence. crates are stolen with 1:30 to go, and Team A fail to get the truck away.

Result is a draw but one team is clearly a much better team. I have played matches like this, and have held off much better teams on goldrush, simply because the last stage can be so hard to break. If the same game had been played on radar or supply depot you can guarantee you would have got a result.

No one is suggesting that we make all the maps like TC_base (i.e. maps that can be won in 1 rush) as that DOES take a lot of the strategy out of ET. But maps like supply depot have multi-stage objectives, lots of strategy, but are also fast and do produce results

How do you rate this for an idea for structuring stopwatch games to deal with full holds...
each time there is a fullhold you add 5 minutes to the clock for the next team until someone set a time. It deals with the draw after draw after draw problem...but not really with the "I want the whole game to be incredibly fast paced and over really quickly because I have no patience" problem.

Have you ever played a 3 hour ET game of just goldrush to try and get a result? I can honestly say it is not fun (and before you say "go work on your offensive strats, DSky / gs played a similar match that was repeated double full holds and both teams are brilliant attacking teams)

[dA*Rogue]

Playing 5 hour matches on goldrush is a pain in the ass.

Start playing customs. Still playing gold rush in these big leagues is a joke.

Quote:
sadly most maps are defense biased

Rubbish. Most maps balance offense and defense and whats more most people like the way them the way they are. A defensive bias map as you call it is not defensive biased at all - it just has a longer base time to play. If a map can't produce a result in the allowed time then just increase the maximum time allowed for the map.

A longer base team just allows the Axis to earn more XP on a defensively biased map. Sure, maybe after hours the defence is going to get fatigued and make mistakes, but that's hardly going to make GGz, is it?

With a longer map you find that strategy dominates - a few seconds saved or lost here and there makes all the difference.

A few seconds makes more of an impact on smaller maps, actually...

[ouroboro]

I'd be interested in a poll asking what active, competitive players consider to be the best map for matches?

[Stun]

you mean people liked etmain battery?

No im sure they didnt but the tweaks it needed were made and it is now a very playable map imo. The map did not have such drastic changes that are being proposed for Goldrush and its only tweaks that Goldrush needs.

[Emtee]

In my opinion the idea to play goldrush without a tank is frightening me. Because the tank is the reason for the Axis to come out and to be more offensive than it would be without the tank. You have 3-5 places where you can defend as long as the tank passes this way. But if you remove the tank I think you will see more and more that Axis will be more defensive staying in the near of the bank and mining the hole place.

How about the idea to make the tank indistructable, when it is repaired once?
In Supplydepot it is the same with the truck and this map is very playable. With this you wouldnt change too much in the gameplay of the map and it would be more interesting in ETTV (at least in my opinion )

I also like the idea with the new spawnpoint for the allies (at constructed cp) what gives the allies more possibilities.
This also made fueldump more interesting.

To sum up I only want to tell you...if you are changing a map as drastically like this don't make half things then. You can make a whole new map and leagues can chose if they want to have goldrush or goldrush2 in their mappool.
But changing only small things like the spawnpoint or the tank will be enough I think.

[derelictwhirl]

and LoZz is only saying stupid things, cause he is 24/7 rifle nader

Yer real mature gg

if you want limited lives in then thats fine i fail to see how that would improve that game it would all be about killing and there would be no objective play to it so much for improved compotion play it would be like a pub, have u ever played a clan match bani?

don't worry if such a joke as limited lives becomes reality, then serious league admins will stick to 3.1.3 and bani will code mods for himself. gg

[derelictwhirl]

if teams are equally matched, a defense biased map will never end. we've seen this before with 3 and 5 hour double full hold matches where one team ended up losing purely due to fatigue, not skills.

bani, endurance *is* a skill. it's a factor in campaign matches too, when the 3rd map has to be played, the weak ones tend to break down at <5 mins for late action drama.