Dear Bani

[Threshold]

does anyone recall how vehemently opposed everyone was to changing the XP system? all the abuse I (and others) received for suggesting the skill system was damaging to competition and should be limited?

players were so used to the etmain xp system and so attached to it that they were completely blinded to the fact that it might not be the best thing for competition. any suggestion of changes was violently opposed.

same thing is happening with these new threads.

players are so entrenched and attached to the status quo that theyre unwilling to even discuss changes.

this is the same reason new maps arent getting any playtesting. players are too attached to old maps, old tactics, old ideas, and dont want to be bothered to learn anything new. any new ideas/concepts/etc are met with incredible abuse.

mappers are leaving et because of these problems. don't you people get it? your abusive attitudes are driving away people who have the ability to make the game better.

some ideas might be bad, fine. but players are unwilling to even discuss any changes at all these days, regardless of the merit of the proposal.

instead of any reasoning or debate, its always "stfu you (some insult)" and "'omfg leave et alone and go play (some other game)".

i'm sure many of you will continue to blind yourselves to the fact that you're hurting et with this backwards attitude. probably the same people who will flame me now, and then go off on other forums to whine about the lack of maps.

Bani your statement could be more right and it's been like this going back to RTCW. I sooo wish people could just make a point without flaming. The problem is that more people like what you have done and what you have given to the community then flame but they are not as vocal..

I guess we have to realize that allot of these people being asses are 14 to 18 year old's with no respect.

[Nogen]

You want as many rules as I know about:
1. 1 trip arround the board before you buy anything/vs no trips
2. divy out properties before game starts (actually suggested in rule paplet)
3. buy houses/hotels un-evenly on properties
4. buy inexcess of 1hotel (1hotel+3houses)
5. buy houses/hotels w/o owning a monopoly
6. the American Edition Rules (buy a lawyer instead of going directly to jail... etc)
7. land on go collect double the lotto

But these are all variations. Everyone know the correct rules to monopoly. Most of the rules you have listed above are optional rules.

1. You can't buy first time around board
2. Recommended for short games (defeats the purpose of playing)
3. optional rule
4. optional rule
5. optional rule
6. never heard of it
7. optional rule

My house rules include the free parking and number 7...but they are known as house rules.

As i said, people are too impatient to come up with/keep a good sport now... If you don't make SOME sort of change people will flock away...

Thats not true at all. People will always stick to their sports. Soccer hasn't changed in a long time and more people play that around the world than any other sport.

Also side point... most people know the rules of the league before they join... some allow trick plants some forbid it... things like that, you will always know the rules/conditions of the league before you join a match, and you should always read the rules before joining a league anyway...

Yes thats true... but it would be nice if there was some sort of international standard rules. We need to have like an international governing body with representatives from each league who decide on all rules.

Another thing that concerns me is this attempt to differentiate between playing on a pub and playing in a clan. It would be nice if the rules and settings for both were the same. I think its really good the pubs that keep up to date with the ETPro versions and the leagues who run their pubs with the comp settings.

It would be nice to see the ET world united instead of one group of people wanting something for the pubs and another group wanting something for the comps. If I want to go down to the local field and kick the soccer ball around with some mates its still soccer...its still the same game I play when I play with my team in our local comp. It'd be nice to see the same thing for ET.

The changes that have been made so far are fine...But we are at a point where the changes need to start getting smaller and I'd like to see a day when ET settles down into its eternal form.

[Grizbo]

I understand that some people get bored and want things to move on, have changes to mix things up a bit and give them some excitement. The thing is, what happens to the people who have a longer attention span, and DON'T want/need to have changes to make things exciting, that things are already still great for? Are they to sit back and watch some impatient people charge in and demolish the game they like in favour of something that will satisfy those people?

This is where the problem lies, in my opinion. Some people are happy, some people aren't, some people are going for changes because they're adrenaline junkies that can't stand anything they've seen a few times before and crave something new, and some people like to learn all about something and work to be the best they can at that without needing something fresh to start all over again.

I'm not saying no change is ever good, all I'm saying is that whilst I agree with bugfixes and new maps being needed, and most of the features etpro has at the moment, I don't think we need massive changes like some people are asking for, just to "keep it interesting". I think ET is already interesting, and people who are losing that interest, well I'm sorry for them losing out on a great game, but I don't want the game I still love changing to something I don't just to keep them happy.

On a side note, and I don't mean this as a critisism but I think some of the resistance is down to presentation of ideas on this forum. Sometimes its very hard to see what you're thinking Bani, or precisely what you mean. An example is the new map or map script confusion. Although there were 15 pages of that discussion, it was relatively late in the thread that it was finally cleared up it would be a script rather than a new map, and you ended up having people from both "camps" commenting negatively because nobody was really sure what the situation was, and were basically saying "if its this, then I'm really angry" from EVERYONE.

I think it was the same with the spawntimer debate, when people were unsure of how it was going to be done, and argued against versions that may not ever have been on the cards. I think if people we given that information earlier, it might go better... But then there are a lot of people who don't read and talk shite anyway, so maybe not

[bani]

Changes if they do happen should be a slow evolution. Have a look at how blizzard handles starcraft/diablo and the rest of battlenet. Bring in a few small changes at a time, let them become the norm before bringing in any others. I have to say in most regards this has been done with ET and I applaud the ETPro boys for their work...But there has to be a point where it stops...a point where the gameplay stops changing and the only things added are "features".

Changes should only be very small and adopted very slowly. I really think blizzard's handling of starcraft and in general their online community for all their games is absolutely superb. Starcraft went through some rapid patching early on with a lot of balance changes. Then with each patch the balance changes became less and less severe until it converged on the game that has been constant for about 4 years. The occasional patches that come out now only add features and fix the odd bug.

i would argue that etmain out of the box was more flawed than starcraft out of the box. also, ET is barely 1 over year old and you are already wanting to cast the game in concrete. we are still making radical changes to ET because many elements of the game are still completely broken (eg hitboxes) and very, very difficult to repair.

with your approach, we would simply not touch any of these things -- despite the fact it is possible to do things better -- under the blanket argument of 'well it would change the game'. yes, it would. but imo better hitboxes would make the game better overall. you'd argue keeping the flawed hitboxes merely because players are used to playing with the flawed hitboxes.

also, ET is still a new game, gameplay flaws, bugs and exploits are still being discovered almost daily. to cast everything in stone now as you propose would be a mistake IMO.

i say there is still room for improvement. yes, there is probably a point at where changes should slow down and maybe even stop, but i dont think that exact date is today.

[Kendle]

but imo better hitboxes would make the game better overall. you'd argue keeping the flawed hitboxes merely because players are used to playing with the flawed hitboxes.

Who would argue that Bani? Better hitboxs would undoubtedly be a "good thing". Please stop putting words into people's mouths. Just because someone doesn't want a major change (like taking the Tank out of Goldrush or nerfing a Class) don't assume they don't want anything you have to offer.

also, ET is still a new game, gameplay flaws, bugs and exploits are still being discovered almost daily. to cast everything in stone now as you propose would be a mistake IMO.

i say there is still room for improvement. yes, there is probably a point at where changes should slow down and maybe even stop, but i dont think that exact date is today.

So please carry on fixing the bugs, eliminating the exploits, etc. No-one's ever said don't do that, have they? But some of your recent "proposals" have been *mostly* major gameplay changes, not fixing things that are broken. Contrast the response to the "Goldrush" thread to the reponse to the "request for beta testers" thread. Not even in the same ball-park are they?

[bani]

there are people already arguing against hitbox changes. i'm not putting words into peoples mouths -- i dont need to.

[Kendle]

there are people already arguing against hitbox changes. i'm not putting words into peoples mouths -- i dont need to.

And a lot more arguing in favour

My point is you take someone's opposition to something to claim someone else is opposed to something else.

[Nogen]

i would argue that etmain out of the box was more flawed than starcraft out of the box. also, ET is barely 1 over year old and you are already wanting to cast the game in concrete. we are still making radical changes to ET because many elements of the game are still completely broken (eg hitboxes) and very, very difficult to repair.

Yes I would agree that etmain was more flawed than starcraft from technical perspective. It took an expansion pack and some major changes to really make the game a true classic.

with your approach, we would simply not touch any of these things -- despite the fact it is possible to do things better -- under the blanket argument of 'well it would change the game'. yes, it would. but imo better hitboxes would make the game better overall. you'd argue keeping the flawed hitboxes merely because players are used to playing with the flawed hitboxes.

Actually I think fixing the hitboxes is a great idea. In another thread where I was cut down for a suggestion which did turn out to fairly bad...I pointed out that people like to get what they see. I think corrected hitboxes is a step in the right direction.

Not only this, I don't think correcting hitboxes would alter the game play much at all. Most of the protests come as a result of challenges to the larger scheme of things such as the class and XP systems and map changes. They are what people see as making ET what it is...not how your hits are calculated in firefights or how much damage particular weapons do (so long as its all balanced).

also, ET is still a new game, gameplay flaws, bugs and exploits are still being discovered almost daily. to cast everything in stone now as you propose would be a mistake IMO.

Its probably that I play it far too much that it doesn't seem like a new game...has it really only been one year? And as I keep saying, bani, I have cautiously agreed with every single change that I have seen implemented so I am not saying that now is the time to set things in stone. But I think that we are past the radical changes stage. I guess this will bring out some arguments about what defines a radical/minor change But I think my point above about the XP and class systems and accepted maps probably covers what is considered radical by the community...

[bani]

no, i'm just saying the opposition to any change at all is quite typical. if something as plainly obvious as improved hitboxes gets objected to on the grounds of 'change is bad', it's not a good sign.

[Grizbo]

no, i'm just saying the opposition to any change at all is quite typical. if something as plainly obvious as improved hitboxes gets objected to on the grounds of 'change is bad', it's not a good sign.

If there are people like that, then I agree with you 100%. Clearly there are extremists on both sides of the argument. Lets hope that there are enough more reasonable around who are more represenative of the *general* opinion and can support what they're saying more clearly for you then

[bani]

the problem is that the objections are coming from people who arent extremists. if they were coming out of left field from some quack, i could understand. but they're coming from center field.

this makes bani sad.

[Kendle]

Bani's insistance on lumping together anyone who objects to anything as swivel-eyed extemists hellbent on opposing everything makes Kendle sad. Perhaps we should resume our PM "discussions" Bani.

[bani]

as i said the objections arent coming from non swivel-eyed extemists hellbent on opposing everything. theyre coming from people who are normally quite sane.

dont know how you read my post completely backwards...

[Kendle]

No idea, you've lost me now I'm afraid. I could interpret what I think you mean, but then I'll be wrong no doubt.

I just think that if your ideas are being objected to by people you'd not normally consider "extremists", couldn't that mean the ideas are flawed?

[bani]

my point is non extremists are objecting to hitbox changes.