Damage-based XP proposal

[bani]

Please implement:
Gib Stats

this would delay etpro too. i guess you dont want it either

[ildon]

Look back at RtCW or Q3. No one recieved .5 points for ALMOST killing an enemy, and ET should be no different.

Apparently you're the one who needs to look back. Since Rocket Arena for Quake2 (and possibly before) there have been mods that either kept track of damage dealt in addition to kills, or had an option to base points on damage instead of kills. Hell one of the first features of OSP for RTCW was to track the amount of damage dealt by each player and post that big table of it at the end of the round, which ET still does. Anyone smart looks at both damage and kills on the scoreboard in RA3 and 3wave CTFS to determine not only who REALLY did the most damage, but also who is "getting the job done" by finishing the enemy off.

Both are important in a team game. By awarding 1xp per N damage and 1-2xp per true frag, it rewards both.

[NewdeaL]

i never said they didnt track damage given / damage recieved


have you ever seen a player with 4.5 points? no. this is kinda like what this xp system is like.

A KILL IS A KILL IS A KILL IS A KILL

what you described is what we in the industry call a "stat whore"

FFS i'll give you all of my kills, as long as we win the round, i dont give a shit who gets the XP for them



Gamma said: "Anyways, I really don't care as long as the average rate of xp gain stays the same. Then again, if it stays the same - why implement?

Just release the new version, PLEASE"


AHMEN BROTHER.

the beta test of etpro 2.1 was fine. (with the exception of no +dropweapon and a true "RtCW" like hud)

put those in and call it fanito

[Kendle]

Bloody hell, this thread wasn't here last time I looked, now I've just had to wade thru 6 friggin pages!!

All good arguments, so I'm not going to go into too much detail, but in general I'd be in favour of this, as it would, IMO, make the maps more balanced, which can only be a good thing for competition.

As someone stated several pages back, the defense get lots of kills and therefore XP and therefore faster reload / more accurate SMG's etc., whereas the attacking team may inflict a lot of damage but get fewer kills and end up with an XP disadvantage the longer the game goes on. This makes the maps even more biased to defense than they are already, and in turn goes against the fundamental principle of Stopwatch competition, which requires times to be set.

Personally my prefered solution to this would be to remove the XP upgrades completely. Quite frankly I find it abhorrent that the games points system can effect who wins a game. The outcome of a Clan match should be based purely on which team has the better strats / aim / teamwork / comms, etc.

However, there is obviously a strong feeling in the ET community that XP must remain part of the game, in which case this proposal serves both sides of the argument. XP remains, but is awarded more proportionately to skill and has less detrimental effect on the outcome of the game.

I vote YES and I vote YES as an active Clan player who wants to see fair competition in ET.

[SickBoy]

It's not a bad idea but not too great either. Emphasis should lay on kills, not damage imo. Sure you'll have a frag stolen now and then, but you probably steal as much frags yourself, so in the end, it's only the rebalancing between defense/offense that's interesting here.

But what about headshots? Not rewarded anymore in the new system.

Some dumb ideas I read along the way:
XP for gib damage : yeah right encourage people to tap out immediately (or /kill), and be ready for the gib-whore.
XP for partially constructing objects: easily exploited by building just not enough and returning in 30 sec for some new xp

[NewdeaL]

Majikthise:

Yes, these are my opinions. I am not grouping the creators in with the rest of you. This may sound egotistical, but I know for a fact that I'm a better player than you are.

With that said, I feel (and so does everyone I've talked to) that bani has already done good things with ETpro 2.1 and shouldn't go fudging it up by adding something so "revolutionary" as damage based XP. Gamma put it nicely, but I'm not that nice.

I drop my own 2 cents in, and what do i get in return? mathmatical mumbo jumbo and people trying to force feed this crap down my throat, saying things like "THIS IS GOING TO BE IN PUB-AND-COMPETITIVE PLAY NOW LIKE IT OR GTFO" more or less. I'm saying if bani is going to do this, do it the right way. He's obviously got the vote of the pub all-stars judging by this forum, now ask the competitive community on the TWL ET forums.

I think i speak for all the ET players from TWL/CAL that we wouldn't want something as big as this added to ETpro if we didn't have our own, seperate vote. Think about it, what if you were in a position like myself, my team, and all the other teams that I play against every week. You wouldn't want just us to vote on something like this to be added to the game if it specifically changed the way the game is played. ESPECIALLY if it were for something as big as CAL/TWL playoffs, QuakeCon CPL etc..

I understand the "spreading the XP wealth" system. But this game, as well as many other games rely souly on "if you're the skilled player, you're going to play better." Damage based XP will imo allow 1 or 2 players to completely carry a team because the less skilled players around them who remain fairly safe, playing the back lines, could pop some "pot" shots and gain xp without doing much of the grunt work.

bani: soldier class has the same function as everyone else, to kill the enemy. The other classes have to kill, they are not ammo, meds, and landmine machines ONLY. The game works wonderfully as it is, and imo there's no reason to change it.

[Kendle]

I understand the "spreading the XP wealth" system. But this game, as well as many other games rely souly on "if you're the skilled player, you're going to play better." Damage based XP will imo allow 1 or 2 players to completely carry a team because the less skilled players around them who remain fairly safe, playing the back lines, could pop some "pot" shots and gain xp without doing much of the grunt work.

Er, isn't that exactly how it is now? My primary role in my Clan is Medic. I follow the Engys to the objective, they inflict most of the damage, I come along and pop a shot or 2 into the bad guys and get the kill and all the XP. This proposal changes that scenario. Plus, what's wrong with 1 or 2 skilled players carrying a team? It's all about the team at the end of the day. It's the team that wins or loses, not the individual.

Sorry Newdeal, I respect a lot of what you say, but I think you just made the case FOR the proposal with that paragraph.

I think i speak for all the ET players from TWL/CAL that we wouldn't want something as big as this added to ETpro if we didn't have our own, seperate vote. Think about it, what if you were in a position like myself, my team, and all the other teams that I play against every week. You wouldn't want just us to vote on something like this to be added to the game if it specifically changed the way the game is played. ESPECIALLY if it were for something as big as CAL/TWL playoffs, QuakeCon CPL etc..

Completely agree with this. Like it or not, but the big boys (CPL, CAL, etc.) should be the ones making decisions like this. Personally I think they'd be in favour.

No XP > Damage based XP > Kill based XP.

IMO

[KingJackaL]

He's obviously got the vote of the pub all-stars judging by this forum, now ask the competitive community on the TWL ET forums.

I think i speak for all the ET players from TWL/CAL that we wouldn't want something as big as this added to ETpro if we didn't have our own, seperate vote. Think about it, what if you were in a position like myself, my team, and all the other teams that I play against every week. You wouldn't want just us to vote on something like this to be added to the game if it specifically changed the way the game is played. ESPECIALLY if it were for something as big as CAL/TWL playoffs, QuakeCon CPL etc..

Stop ranting about RWL/CAL ffs. I'm a kiwi, I'm interested in what kiwi's think. iceman/majicthese etc are aussies, they care was the aussie clans think.

Who gives a flying fvck what you d@mn yanks think ( except you yanks ). Stop p1mping CAL/TWL ffs. CAL/TWL != ET - you're just one SMALL chunk of the planet. This forum is a FAR more appropriate place to have the discussion - I don't follow CAL/TWL forums, and doubt ANY other players here in NZ do. BUT, some the more active/keen/admin types in the Wolf community DO follow this site.

Leave the CAL/TWL debate for CAL/TWL to decide. The rest of the planet don't care.



Also, you might do well not call us 'pub superstars'. Just because you don't recognise posters' names, don't mean they're noobs. I recognise a LOT of league organisers ( 3 or 4 so far ), clan captains etc posting here. Oh, sure - YOU don't know their names, but you're some random yank. I have NFI who you are either - are you some random pub noob? :p

[Kendle]

KingJackaL, I think his point was that Leagues should be the ones to make these decisions, or at least that's how I read it. I'm from the UK and also don't follows CAL,CPL etc., (though I do visit TWL forums), and I'd also resent the US competitive scene making decisions that affected us.

The trouble with this forum, and this Poll, is that it's open to any Tom, Dick and Harry who only plays ET on pubs and doesn't understand what competition is all about.

[NewdeaL]

i am a poster name kthx

why would i care what some sun beaten aussie thinks about the game i play? your country is a big dusty sandy island that europeans sent their criminals to long ago. so far all we've heard from is the euro side, and it's been obvious since the begining that the euros and north americans play completely different versions of ET. i want my side heard just as your side has spoken.

N.A. players may just be a spec in e-sports, but this coming from an aussie? gimme a break. the only team that ever came from "The Land Down Under" was dot. and they compared to N.A. teams were mediocre at best.


Kendle: you're my new best friend because you're understanding what i'm saying.

[Majikthise]

Majikthise:

Yes, these are my opinions. I am not grouping the creators in with the rest of you. This may sound egotistical, but I know for a fact that I'm a better player than you are.

Since when did you being apparently "better" have anything at all to do with this argument? Do I look like I give a shit how good you are? No, not in the slightest. Is it relavent to this discusion? again, not in the slightest.

With that said, I feel (and so does everyone I've talked to) that bani has already done good things with ETpro 2.1 and shouldn't go fudging it up by adding something so "revolutionary" as damage based XP. Gamma put it nicely, but I'm not that nice.

There's a saying, it goes, "don't knock it before you try it". Like bani said, things he's added before were looked at as a negative change, but people ended up liking it after trying it.

I drop my own 2 cents in, and what do i get in return? mathmatical mumbo jumbo and people trying to force feed this crap down my throat, saying things like "THIS IS GOING TO BE IN PUB-AND-COMPETITIVE PLAY NOW LIKE IT OR GTFO" more or less. I'm saying if bani is going to do this, do it the right way. He's obviously got the vote of the pub all-stars judging by this forum, now ask the competitive community on the TWL ET forums.

Exactly, because your "2 cents" have been "I'm right, I'm the voice of the important players. None of you matter". Do you really expect us to care much of what you're saying when you hold yourself higher than everyone else?

I think i speak for all the ET players from TWL/CAL that we wouldn't want something as big as this added to ETpro if we didn't have our own, seperate vote. Think about it, what if you were in a position like myself, my team, and all the other teams that I play against every week. You wouldn't want just us to vote on something like this to be added to the game if it specifically changed the way the game is played. ESPECIALLY if it were for something as big as CAL/TWL playoffs, QuakeCon CPL etc..

Again with your "I'm the most important one here" attitude. If I was in a position like you described, I'd like to see it in action before condeming it. (it's called testing, y'know, what happens before something is released?) And since when did the ETPro crew say this was going to be added just because of this board? This is a proposal, with input being taken from anywhere it can. Obviously people are seeing this idea, and it's being talked about in many places.

I understand the "spreading the XP wealth" system. But this game, as well as many other games rely souly on "if you're the skilled player, you're going to play better." Damage based XP will imo allow 1 or 2 players to completely carry a team because the less skilled players around them who remain fairly safe, playing the back lines, could pop some "pot" shots and gain xp without doing much of the grunt work.

Ok, so the "less skilled players" will carry the team because of getting one or two shots in, not the more skilled players dealing -more- damage? Where is the logic in that? Also, have you even thought that this will help your team as well? Your "weak" players are getting more XP, and all you can think of is, "but they're just leeching off the good players". Way to be a team player. And, last I checked, this game relied on teamwork, not "if you're the skilled player, you're going to play better." That's Q3 and the like. I'd rather have someone who is a team player, and know where to go, and what to do, than someone who can shoot well, but never follows orders.

[KingJackaL]

So what we REALLY need is a set of possibilities, not a change that either happens or doesn't. For example, the cvar's:

b_killXP "3" //amount of XP given per kill
b_damageXP "0" //amout of damage per XP given

(set by default to those - the defaults as they stand)

That way leagues can implement it as they see fit for their community.

The main problem with that being, everyone will do it differently.


So perhaps a bitmask detailing options like I had above:

b_XPdamagebalance "0" //0 - 3XP-k/1XP-0HP, 1 - 2XP-k/1XP-140HP, 2 - 1XP-k/1XP-70HP, 4 - 0XP-k/1XP-50HP


Or at the very LEAST, implimented as an optional cvar.



Either way, I wouldn't even support my own suggestions going into the mod until I've seen playtesting.

[bani]

this thread sounds a bit like my proposal to remove the grass on radar.

it was initially universally reviled, many of the same arguments 'aint broken', 'serves a useful strategic purpose' etc. and i got a lot of personal attacks.

then people actually tried it, realized it actually had merit, and it ended up being standard in various leagues.

same with the battery and fueldump changes. 'n00b changes', 'aint broken', 'dont touch the maps'. again, after players actually tried it the objections died off.

try it first before you reject it out of hand...

[bani]

The main problem with that being, everyone will do it differently.

i dunno. initially clanbase, twl, sta, etc had different settings, some quite wildly different. it sounds like after the first season they found out what worked and what didnt and are changing settings to get closer to each other, adopting what worked (eg no grass on radar) and discarding what didnt.

if damage based xp works well in the leagues that adopt it, other leagues are sure to follow the leaders.

maybe initial season league settings will be different, but when players find out one league's settings are working better than another's, i'm sure the leagues will follow suit -- or lose players.

[KingJackaL]

The main problem with that being, everyone will do it differently.

i dunno. initially clanbase, twl, sta, etc had different settings, some quite wildly different. it sounds like after the first season they found out what worked and what didnt and are changing settings to get closer to each other, adopting what worked (eg no grass on radar) and discarding what didnt.

if damage based xp works well in the leagues that adopt it, other leagues are sure to follow the leaders.

maybe initial season league settings will be different, but when players find out one league's settings are working better than another's, i'm sure the leagues will follow suit -- or lose players.

True, I've even noticed this between my league and the Aussie ones ( GA/Aussieclans ) with the XP levels. They're still pretty different - but our first proposals both moved a bit further together after playtesting.